Greetings Homer Club.

I notice that not only is Agamemnon the one to advocate for massacre, but he's also the one to kill the solder that Menelaus nearly took pity on. Menelaus just pushed the guy over to Agamemnon, who stuck him with a spear. Hm, this is not the first time Menelaus let someone else take something off his hands and decide its fate :^)

Prudence can protect a warrior and save his life. Diomedes is prudent to avoid even the appearance of challenging the gods - he's well aware of the danger. I don't think Diomedes was wanting to battle the gods in the first place until Athena told him he should. At least then, Athena was helping him fight.

I liked the foreboding doom of Hecuba picking out a dazzling robe for Theno to lay in Athena's lap, and lifting up a desperate, heartfelt prayer, only for Athena to shake her head. What beautiful frustration for the audience - to watch a woman plead for pity her city is not going to receive!

Marvelous work! I may be interested in the clam machine

No worries, hetero_malk! Thanks for keeping this book club going. 

 - I wasn't able to open the first link. The second I may open later. 

 - Ares does appear to have an appetite. When Pandarus attempts to spear Diomedes, Diomedes tells him that Ares will drink his blood. 

 - Diomedes is quite impressive in this section, but he gets a lot of help from Athena. She gives him counsel, helps him distinguish between gods and men, and even helps steer his weapons. Oh, and she helps him pick up a rock.The gods are capable of quite a lot on their own, but it's fun to see what can happen when they team up with humans. I liked how when Hera complains to Athena that the Greeks aren't doing so well, she responds "ok let me suit up" so that she can give Diomedes a pep talk about how to be Ares's biggest problem. Then it works!

 - Of course Ares is despised. Both the gods and the humans want war, but war is still awful - just as death and bloodshed are awful. A god literally embodying these things is really only loved by the bloodthirsty and warlike. It's also fascinating to me that the negative fallout of war is attributed to Ares. The destruction, loss of life, the violence ... since war itself is deified and has a face, people can simply blame him for the evil things that war does. He IS war. 

 - I do think Ares has things in common with humans. He has appetites that get him and others into trouble, sometimes fatally. He gets used - If Hera desires a battle, how could Ares not be involved? and of course, humans get used by the gods all the time. Finally, I see Ares getting held accountable for his actions more than I see it for other gods. Zeus, Hera, and Aphrodite all get upset by his violent appetites. Similarly, humans will also be vilified for particularly heinous acts, if found out. But the other gods don't seem to be held with the same scrutiny. Eris starts a problem among the goddesses with an apple (though to be fair, Eris starting a problem is just Eris being Eris), Aphrodite bribes a judge with someone else's wife and starts a war, then she steals said judge to save him from fighting his own battles. And yet, not much is said hardly at all about all of it! Even upon Aphrodite yoinking Paris, the resulting frustration and anger isn't truly directed at her.

This was a fun chapter to read. Lol, Zeus responds to Ares's complaining with "Shut up, I hate you. Go see the nurse."

Sorry for my lateness!! Going to post before reading all the other lovely comments.

 - I think agency is still in here, but I wonder if having a "mindless mind" means that Pandarus perhaps didn't have a very strong will to begin with - hence why he makes a good tool for the whims of the gods. It was funny that Menelaus told a very upset Agamemnon, "Don't worry babes, I was saved by my accessories." 

 - I liked the lines 140 through 150, as it describes the bleeding of Menelaus like staining ivory. It makes me think of when I used to dye fabric (just in a five-gallon bucket, nothing fancy) but the way the dye moved through the water was billowing, gorgeous. To visualize the spilling of blood in this way brings a tragic, macabre beauty to the scene. 

 - Looks to me like Odysseus was still getting things together, and also trying to follow a set protocol - they hadn't heard the cry of war yet, they were waiting on a Greek battalion, etc. Even Homer describes them as standing still, though they were not cowards. I'm finding chaos and confusion communicated in this scene ... technically, a battle shouldn't have happened after the solo combat, and they didn't get Helen back! It appears as though these men are trying to make sense of a rube-goldberg born of the gods. I do think that making the audience take sides and argue would continue to engage them in the story, and make them emotionally invest in the characters, which is clever.

 - I feel like any renowned warrior would hate the thought of someone else wearing their armor after death - especially someone of lower station. Especially if a warrior is known by a particular piece of armor or weaponry ... It's an extension of their reputation. Any warrior might be known by his shield, sword, gun, etc. To see it taken from them in death further rubs salt in the wound of their loss. 

 - Fun to see Eris (Conflict) enter the scene! Yay!

 - Lots of references to nipples in this section. 

Hold the phone. Bluey Cup went willingly with Paris??? I had to go and look this up and sure enough some sources say this was the case - evidently, she had fallen in love with him. But I'm also seeing that some interpretations imply abduction occurred, or that Aphrodite fudged things somehow. If anyone has more information on this, I'd be much obliged. 

I like the included biblical reference. Goes nicely with the celestial themes of this month's issue

I think Daji is right about Paris - he's pretty, but otherwise doesn't come off as very impressive. However, beauty is powerful. Sometimes the sheer beauty of a person is enough to sway wills and turn tides. The concept of beauty itself has had ravenous effects in this work for sure - the contest of fairness with the golden apple, and Helen being selected as a bribe prize (and it works).Some of the older Trojan counsel advisers even suggest that Helen should be sent away, before she may "bring about catastrophe for us and our children in the future." 

I think Helen has had a wild ride. I wonder how much notice she got about being Paris' reward for choosing Aphrodite in that contest. I'm noticing she doesn't feel too highly of herself - calling herself hateful, a dog-face, wishing she'd chosen a painful death over leaving with Paris. Her attitude seems pretty grim. She definitely doesn't like Paris, from the way she scolds him, and she's frustrated enough that she's actually arguing with the goddess Aphrodite when summoned to be with Paris. She's aware, too, of the death and war already happening because of the conflict surrounding her. 

I'm struck by this irony: so many people desire to be beautiful, and yet it has landed Helen in a horrible situation. Aphrodite's gifts for beauty and sensual satisfaction are all around her and Helen is still terribly miserable.

It leads me to wonder what could happen if Helen decided to defy Aphrodite after all. Aphrodite has promised a painful death and terrible legacy as well - would the raging war still continue on the same? What if she made it back to her first husband? Would the Greeks still demand retribution - whether as compensation, or would they want blood?

Thanks for sharing this - this was a helpful way to view that section! What a way for the speaker to connect with the audience.

It's also kind of fun that these names are listed as if relayed from the Muses themselves. "Now tell me, Muses, who have your houses high on Mount Olympus, for you are goddesses and you are here, and you know everything, and you see it all, while we can only listen to the stories - we have seen nothing and do not know. Who were the lords and leaders of the Greeks?"

And the little descriptions! I'm thinking of the bit where it says "from Phthia, Trechis, Alope, and Hellas, where women are most beautiful." I can imagine girls from that region winking at each other like "yes queen! You know it!"

Sorry for the late reply! I'm going to wait to read responses till after I've posted. 

 - I enjoyed the bit where Thersites goes off on Agamemnon and Odysseus hits him with a stick for it till he cries. 10/10 Entertainment and just a lil ominous? I noted that their main complaint with this guy is that he seems to open his mouth exclusively to cause trouble, and apparently he is very ugly to boot lol. In this bit, he seems to think the fight they're going towards is more about Agamemnon than anything else. I wouldn't say Thersites is entirely right, but I like his boldness in bringing up the personal conflict between Agamemnon and Achilles about their trophies and how it relates to the situation at hand. Then Odysseus silences "that rude windbag" via percussion and everybody cheers :)

-Zeus sending Agamemnon the false dream makes me think of the United States' Manifest Destiny & expansion into the Northern American continent(my memory of this bit in history is a little foggy, so forgive me/correct me if I fumble it up. Also, I'm ragging on my own country here). From what I remember, the United States considered their expansion divinely inspired,and didn't give much regard to how it impacted the indigenous peoples already living there ... they were just in the way, fallout, a problem to be swept aside. So millions of people were devastated (lost homes, lives, way of life, dehumanized, etc) while U.S. folks were just chasing the dream.

Now, Agamemnon has woken up and he seems to have this God-given commission to go fight. Since Zeus has done this as a solid to Thetis, it's hard to know all the impact this fight will have, other than just the intended one. As Agamemnon chases his dream, so to speak, I'm very interested to see what else may happen as a result.

 - Humans and animals seem to have a pretty clear business relationship in this work ... I haven't much observed companionship between men and animals outside of that. 

 - I did notice that leaders and common soldiers were delivered the same message very differently. The class distinctions are clear ... Thersites is also "put in his place" when he decides to criticize his betters. Odysseus's rebuke wasn't just about the nature of the rude comments, but also about how Thersites is too lowly to speak of his leaders at all. In fact, those of lower strata are kinda just background characters ... Breises is led away but given no dialogue, common soldiers are yelled at and struck but their stories aren't really explored. Makes me think the intended audience is likely more for upper-class, wealthy people, ruling class, or warriors ... people who might see themselves in Achilles' or Agamemnon's shoes and identify with conflicts over honor, property, reputation, and legacy (but also people who may view the working class as less important to the story).

 - I really enjoyed how Wilson used the reference to Ares, rather than just war. It makes it so much more personal! One sees Ares' name and can visualize Ares anticipating the men as they anticipate him. One can visualize the men tightening saddles and sharpening weapons with the influence of the god - as though red embers of his being sweep amongst them while they prepare! It enmeshes the greek gods with the material world so seamlessly, and reminds the reader how connected the pantheon is to each part of life. From the river to dawn rising to war brewing to the wisdom of careful thought ... divine persons have their hands in all of it. 

 - I liked hearing about Thamyris bragging so hard that the Muses just came down and destroyed him. "They mutilated him and robbed him of godlike song and forced him to forget the lyre." Reminds me of the story of Arachne. One does not simply challenge the gods. 

Eris is one my favorites! But I also like Mnemosyne, and Nyx.