BelladonnaTook, The Reader
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The Iliad Book Club, Thread 2 on 1/27/2025 11:21:41 PMThanks for sharing this - this was a helpful way to view that section! What a way for the speaker to connect with the audience.
It's also kind of fun that these names are listed as if relayed from the Muses themselves. "Now tell me, Muses, who have your houses high on Mount Olympus, for you are goddesses and you are here, and you know everything, and you see it all, while we can only listen to the stories - we have seen nothing and do not know. Who were the lords and leaders of the Greeks?"
And the little descriptions! I'm thinking of the bit where it says "from Phthia, Trechis, Alope, and Hellas, where women are most beautiful." I can imagine girls from that region winking at each other like "yes queen! You know it!"
The Iliad Book Club, Thread 2 on 1/27/2025 10:04:01 PM
Sorry for the late reply! I'm going to wait to read responses till after I've posted.
- I enjoyed the bit where Thersites goes off on Agamemnon and Odysseus hits him with a stick for it till he cries. 10/10 Entertainment and just a lil ominous? I noted that their main complaint with this guy is that he seems to open his mouth exclusively to cause trouble, and apparently he is very ugly to boot lol. In this bit, he seems to think the fight they're going towards is more about Agamemnon than anything else. I wouldn't say Thersites is entirely right, but I like his boldness in bringing up the personal conflict between Agamemnon and Achilles about their trophies and how it relates to the situation at hand. Then Odysseus silences "that rude windbag" via percussion and everybody cheers :)
-Zeus sending Agamemnon the false dream makes me think of the United States' Manifest Destiny & expansion into the Northern American continent(my memory of this bit in history is a little foggy, so forgive me/correct me if I fumble it up. Also, I'm ragging on my own country here). From what I remember, the United States considered their expansion divinely inspired,and didn't give much regard to how it impacted the indigenous peoples already living there ... they were just in the way, fallout, a problem to be swept aside. So millions of people were devastated (lost homes, lives, way of life, dehumanized, etc) while U.S. folks were just chasing the dream.
Now, Agamemnon has woken up and he seems to have this God-given commission to go fight. Since Zeus has done this as a solid to Thetis, it's hard to know all the impact this fight will have, other than just the intended one. As Agamemnon chases his dream, so to speak, I'm very interested to see what else may happen as a result.
- Humans and animals seem to have a pretty clear business relationship in this work ... I haven't much observed companionship between men and animals outside of that.
- I did notice that leaders and common soldiers were delivered the same message very differently. The class distinctions are clear ... Thersites is also "put in his place" when he decides to criticize his betters. Odysseus's rebuke wasn't just about the nature of the rude comments, but also about how Thersites is too lowly to speak of his leaders at all. In fact, those of lower strata are kinda just background characters ... Breises is led away but given no dialogue, common soldiers are yelled at and struck but their stories aren't really explored. Makes me think the intended audience is likely more for upper-class, wealthy people, ruling class, or warriors ... people who might see themselves in Achilles' or Agamemnon's shoes and identify with conflicts over honor, property, reputation, and legacy (but also people who may view the working class as less important to the story).
- I really enjoyed how Wilson used the reference to Ares, rather than just war. It makes it so much more personal! One sees Ares' name and can visualize Ares anticipating the men as they anticipate him. One can visualize the men tightening saddles and sharpening weapons with the influence of the god - as though red embers of his being sweep amongst them while they prepare! It enmeshes the greek gods with the material world so seamlessly, and reminds the reader how connected the pantheon is to each part of life. From the river to dawn rising to war brewing to the wisdom of careful thought ... divine persons have their hands in all of it.
- I liked hearing about Thamyris bragging so hard that the Muses just came down and destroyed him. "They mutilated him and robbed him of godlike song and forced him to forget the lyre." Reminds me of the story of Arachne. One does not simply challenge the gods.
The Iliad Book Club - Book 1 on 1/11/2025 9:27:44 PM
Eris is one my favorites! But I also like Mnemosyne, and Nyx.
The Iliad Book Club - Book 1 on 1/11/2025 9:24:14 PM
First time reading the Iliad. Been a while since I did any serious lit analysis, which I'm not very good at, anyway. I'm here to learn new things, and also for fun!
The introduction was long (there were parts I skimmed over a bit, admittedly), but marvelously helpful. I appreciated how Wilson explains some of the storytellng mechanisms - like using descriptions to indicate more than simply appearance. The example I remember was how long white arms and beautifully braided hair could communicate beauty, but also status or wealth. I also liked how some characters' names will have descriptors attached, like "swift-footed Lord Achilles". Seems like a helpful way for an oral storyteller to remind listeners who the characters are, and what they're like. And man, how fancy :)
The concept of Trophies fascinated me. Wilson discusses this in the introduction, as well. The thought that a man could take a woman and convert her into a living, moving symbol of victory is very interesting. All she really is, is a woman uprooted and used in a conqueror's home. But whenever he looks at her, or touches her hair, or displays her for others to see, anyone around is reminded not just that the victor won this girl ... He also won whatever scuffle he obtained her from. Do the women ever get much say? Do they recognize the fact that however they carry themselves, they also symbolize the conqueror who took them? While dehumanizing to become someone's property and lose their freedom, I wonder if any women in the "trophy" role could have used their position to their advantage somehow.
I enjoyed the early bit where Agamemnon and Achilles throw insults at each other. I want to use these! "Leader of nonentites!" "You have the heart and courage of a deer!"
The gods do seem mostly occupied with their own whims - I like how Milton brought up the apple incident. Aphrodite offered up someone else's wife just so she could be named the Fairest. And in short, war resulted! So many lives lost. One exception I might mention is Thetis. Achilles comes to her upset about his dispute with Agememnon, and she's willing to do anything for him - even approach Zeus on his behalf. I do know Achilles is her son though. So maybe this doesn't really count as a selfless act, but she does genuinely care about Achilles's well-being and wants to make him happy.
The Iliad Book Club on 12/25/2024 1:20:08 PM
I've got the specified translation and will be joining.
CYS Monthly Gazette BONUS - 15 December 2024 on 12/25/2024 1:11:19 PM
I am interested in the book club! I've obtained the specified translation.