Player Comments on Underland

Spoiler-free intro: This story takes the cake as the most dripped out on all of CYS. Honestly, I'm more than a little concerned for TypeCat's mental health after reaching the ending author's note.

Jokes aside, this is a really solid piece, a mixture of psychological and supernatural horror, with simple but well-developed themes and a wealth of characterization. There's also some powerful lines conveyed with the simplicity of a kid, like: "the floor is a good place to stare at. It will not judge you." Seriously, there's a lot of solid observations on human nature, such as "no one helps when you're the one in the spotlight"

The premise is actually compelling, exceptionally so by my standards. Most horror situations are a result of the characters being mindbogglingly stupid, lessening my enjoyment of them, but this story actually has a realistic set-up. Katya is aware that she's doing something stupid, but is convinced by a mix of peer pressure and her own motivation to be more courageous. There's also not really a way out... At least there's reasoning for this too!

From the beginning, this story is "gnawing away at your senses like a starved pet at its owners corpse", with excellent descriptions that invoke dread and tension right away. Unfortunately, there are typos throughout, like the missing apostrophe in the above quote; however, this doesn't detract from the story much, if at all. What does detract a little bit are some repeated descriptions, although I think most of these instances are in distinct paths, so some readers may never notice it. In terms of content though, there really are a lot of distinct paths, offering a lot of room for exploration and replay value. As a result, I went through most of the epilogues, searching for the true ending. When I did find it, it bumped my rating up by a whole point, because I loved it, but we'll get to the reason why in the

SPOILER-FULL TEXT WALL:

First off, the introductory idiom is sick--really good foreshadowing. I won't get into it, but it is a very flavorful touch.

Let's dive right into the deep end here. I noticed a lot of dichotomies in this story. Whether intentional or not, the usage of contrast is really good for highlighting themes. The most obvious battle going on is between cowardice and courage. Right away, Katya is depicted as the coward, engaging in plenty of self-deprecation even before she's fighting for her life. Sophie seems to be the exemplar of courage. One thing that I don't like about the handling of this particular message is that while every character gets a "lore" segment, the relationship between Sophie and Katya is never expanded upon. Depending on your choices, Katya could gain increased resentment for Sophie, but I would like to know what started this rivalry in the first place.

What I do like is the development of both of these characters throughout. To reach the true ending, Katya has to undertake the frightening task of embarking on her own, then take the moral high ground (a courageous action imo) to defeat her father. In my mind, she transitioned from a battered anti-hero to a full-fledged hero. Meanwhile, Sophie perishes as an overconfident braggart--just as Katya saw her from the beginning. This right here is exactly why I'd like some more background on their relationship, because I want to know if Katya is evil from the beginning.

The story isn't just about courage and cowardice, though, since there's a flood of other contrasting themes, each playing a role in some element of horror (as well as the conclusion). I noticed the following: water-god vs God, reality vs illusion, betrayal vs loyalty, light vs dark, water vs stone, urgency vs eternity. The story even covers the age-old topic of power corrupting people.

Some of these are minor, in my opinion. Light vs dark plays a role in this story very similar to the use of lighting in movies, mostly as a representation of what's good or bad. Mila worries about killers coming out in the dark. At various points, Katya wishes to see stars, which are points of light. The water-monsters lurk in the depths of darkness that's described as more than just the absence of light--clearly they're evil as hell. In the "good" death endings, you are released into the light, and I appreciate this classic metaphor, especially when the "bad" deaths are you being crushed by the darkness (hey, just like the deep ocean! Look at that, there's even layering of messages going on here).

Betrayal vs loyalty is toyed with throughout, with a number of betrayals occurring on the side of the children in some paths, whereas they (try to) stick together in other ones. Interestingly enough, the best ending is reached through betrayal, which is very on-theme for this story, and the horror genre as well. This also ties in to Katya's constant thought of "cowards survive". In the end, while she's not a coward, she still has to betray her friends, so perhaps the real message is "good people get fucked".

On a more existential level, the battle for influence between the water-god and capital-G human God is a very cool dynamic. The Mila page is laden with this discussion, and it is true that children don't understand religion--it really is just thrust upon them. The one thing I wish is that there were a path where Katya or the other kids somehow become a more faithful follower of the water-god than Byed, leading to a schism. Or maybe Mila is converted somehow, instead of dying? Eh, food for thought. Some more food for thought is the debate between urgency, and eternity. The water-god is nigh-eternal, yet its servants scramble to collect water as if it's about to die. In some cases, death leads to eternal limbo, but death is prefaced by urgency, a scramble to survive. Byed even talks about this, when he wonders why Katya wants more time if she will die anyway. Why delay the inevitable, especially when it's so quick?

There's also the concept of illusion vs reality, which is everpresent. At first, all-too-real dreams give the reader some information that Katya doesn't get, which is some really sick foreshadowing, and just makes me feel more worried for Katya. If this were a movie, I would be screaming at these kids to go back.

Overall, there's a lot of shit going on in this story on the thematic level, enough that I could see one of my high school teachers assigning this to us for analysis. As a horror game with a focus on mindfucking you, this is only a positive, since there's a lot for you to think on as Katya is desperately trying to survive. It also tackles concepts that should be far above the processing power of children: the kids' actions and worldviews are all pretty accurate, with this in mind.

I'm not saving the best for last; in fact, I'm just going to talk about it here. The true ending of this story was satisfying as FUCK. I swear it gave me a dopamine release. I love how it's handled: having Katya face her father was a worse threat than any of the water-monsters, at least mentally, and it shows. It also represents the culmination of her courage to shoot herself, while also showing that she isn't completely twisted, since she doesn't take her frustration out on her father. She really matures in the process (even the story says so!) and it just makes sense. Plus, the reveal that there's plenty of water keeps the story from taking a truly happy turn, because man is this situation fucked up.

In conjunction with the ending, the "flee alone" page is an absolute banger. With just the slightest taste of power in a previously powerless situation, Katya is sent into mania. Of course, she denies it: "Power, it's a strange feeling. Father said it corrupted people, but I don't think I've been corrupted. I just act in my own interests now", Wow, that sure sounds like something a power-hungry bastard would say, especially when it's followed up by such reasonable statements as "Of course we're friends. If we weren't, I would've just shot you already". Absolutely normal thing for a child to say, just like me in grade school! "I am the hunter, and she is the prey" is another line that stands out. I really wish we'd gotten the specific ages of the kids, because this is a terrifying thing for a kid to think about her "friend" and it would be even better if the kids are only 10 years old or something. In case you can't tell, I liked this path of the story a lot--good thing it was the "winning" one.

Alright, that's a whole lot of positive review, so I'll just leave it at that. From this point on, I'm going to give writing feedback that's probably only relevant to TypeCat.

Firstly, I don't think I picked up a single colon, semicolon, or em dash. If you want to take your writing to the next level, I strongly encourage the use of all three of these--the rules surrounding them are deceptively simple. Before you begin the process of implementing these, you need to work on shortening up some of your sentences and improving flow. An important thing to recognize is that moar =/= better, especially for descriptions.

Let's compare:
"There are few handholds, and those are rusted through, seeming so fragile they will break if you breathe too harshly"
"There are a few handholds, rusted through, so fragile they could break if you breathe too harshly"

The first is directly taken from the second page of the story, and it is a wordy, awkward sentence. The second is my rendition, which I hope is better. You always want to minimize the amount of words you're using, thereby making what you do say more impactful.

"The pit is not very deep, only appears to be so because of the pitch black dirt"
"The pit is not very deep, only appearing so because of the pitch black dirt"

In this case, just a minor alteration makes the sentence much better. This isn't enough in every case, because there are some sentences that should just be totally rewritten, such as: "A bullet hole going so cleanly through her skull it takes an instant to bleed". I literally don't get what that means--a bullet wound bleeds for more than an instant, even if it's a very clean one (which it wouldn't be: head wounds from bullets are fucking vicious).

"He motions to the shadow, the creature, Ubitso, steps out". Here we go, a perfect example of when to use a colon, maybe even a semicolon. I'll leave you to figure that out for yourself.

Varied punctuation isn't just for the sake of variety. Semicolons can connect independent clauses; you can use this anywhere, but especially to make combat or action scenes move faster. On the other hand, em dashes are great for adding tension or surprise, essential feelings in a horror story.

Lastly, I'm going to talk about the few scenes that I didn't like: the first monster fight. You're given the choice to stay and fight, or run. For some reason, if you stay, you and Mila both die to the monster, but if you run, neither of you dies; however, you hear only one gunshot, and a scream that's cut off, so it implies that she dies, yet she's completely fine on the next page. If you run, you claw at the stone door so hard you start bleeding, yet you say you're fine on the next page. I understand that action can be jumbled, but if there's continuity errors, that's not good. Action that's confusing can serve a good purpose in a horror game, but when it straight up doesn't make sense, it only serves to confuse people. Unless I'm missing something and this is tied to the weird flow of water-time somehow.

Speaking of which, there are mentions of time flowing differently in this realm, yet that isn't ever elaborated on (at least from what I've read). It seems pretty normal to me, just one drop every second. I think this concept is fascinating, but it's not really explored in the story. Not a big deal though.

My last thoughts: overall, an excellent first game from TypeCat--oh, it's not her first. Well, it sure feels like an excellent first game, and I enjoyed this a lot. If you work on your prose a little bit, I'm sure your next game is going to be an 8/8!

Nice job Type!

General Recommendation: An enjoyable horror game, with an intriguing amount of lore and character development.
Preview: Can you and your friends escape the underground tunnels alive?

=SPOILERS BELOW=

General notes:
A strong horror game. This story is dripping in atmosphere. Each line is full of character and tone. You do an excellent job building an atmosphere of dread and uncertainty, and the reader really feels just as stuck as Katya as they dredge their way through the tunnels. This is of key importance in a horror game, and you do it well.
The narrator Katya is quickly and effectively characterized, through the interaction between the children: she’s afraid, but she wants to prove herself as brave and as worthy as her friends. This is done through the narration of Katya’s thoughts, not beating the reader over the head with it.
The evolution of Katya’s character over the course of many of the story’s branches is not a pleasant one, but it is well foreshadowed. Her obsession with proving her bravery makes her vulnerable to heartlessness and selfishness, and similarly, makes her more vulnerable to falling to cowardice. This is evident from her very first scene of the children climbing the tower, which does an excellent job showing the “ordinary world” while characterizing each of the children.
I like the attention given to all the death endings. Each one is fully explored, and most introduce intriguing story elements of their own.
I’m a big fan of stories that take advantage of the CYOA format to tell unique stories, and this is a good example of that. The branching format is used to tell a full story across a variety of possible future that could not be fully expressed in a linear way. Kudos, this makes it a continually interesting read, even after the first few endings are reached.
There were several times I questioned character behavior that seemed erratic and extreme, such as how quick the friends were to turn on each other, or fall to despair. Some of this can be explained by the age of the characters, who seem to be pretty young, and the high-stress situation.
At times the story seemed to drag on before moving to the next scene. This worked decently in a horror game, by making the player fully feel the slow pace of the game, but it also led to the risk of reader boredom.
The bravery/cowardice theme was maintained throughout the story, being a key factor at each decision point. This tied the story together, and was overall a positive. There were a few times I thought it seemed a little overbearing, but this is a minor nitpick. Having a strong central theme is a great way to tie a story and its characters together.
I liked the bits of lore dropped throughout surrounding the outside world and the theme of nuclear power. Focusing on it too much would have derailed the game, but there was just enough to show that these characters exist in a larger world. It struck a nice balance.
Overall: I liked this game a lot. It’s a very enjoyable read.

Specific notes:
- Strong beginning, an interesting scene with a quickly-characterized character, it draws the reader in.
- “Presumably so the water will not evaporate.” Lol.
- Whiskers… hoping instead of walking… we’re dealing with a kangaroo, folks.
- Effective repeated use of “it is made to kill” to characterize the creature, strong characterization.
- Well, I’m intrigued. One gets the impression that the creature is not necessarily a golem, but was changed from something else.
- The water-god description section probably goes on a little longer than necessary.
- “None, most likely, but you could be the first.” Lol.
- You write children well. It’s a tricky balance to strike, but this is good.
- I really like the tonal shift from the “prequel” section to the interaction of the kids. It starts out with the description of the dying man reaching to the sky, taking on a similarly apocalyptic tone as the first section, but then slowly shifts to a more relaxed low-stakes environment, as the reader realizes what’s going on. It’s well done.
- These are all Russian names. Must be in eastern Europe somewhere?
- Mila implies that Katya doesn’t want to stay past dark, which is odd, because Katya had just voted in favor of staying out.
- Pond’s empty. I bet it’s the source of the water in the prologue.
- Rabbit. Not kangaroo. Got it.
- “Suspended in a hole” makes it sound like he’s dangling in it. Is that what you meant?
- Yeah, I’m not that clear on why these kids want to follow the rabbit. Sophie brings up some good points about the rabbit being really sketchy.
- The thumping is mud guy, I assume.
- I like that all the kids have distinct personalities. Mila is weird, but so are a lot of kids in real life.
- At this point, it’s clear that Katya’s motivation is to not be perceived as a coward, so you probably don’t need to spell out that this is her reasoning behind her words. Similarly, her regular worries about wishing she could go back to the surface could be communicated much more concisely, with less words, and less often. The message is clear.
- I like the way Byed is so insistent on his name being pronounced correctly. “Katya is a strange name for a human, don’t you think?” Lol.
- I like how Katya’s resentment of Sophie is slowly building.
- “…forty-two seconds. Forty one.” Nice.
- Interesting how Byed (and Ubitso) seem to be underestimating Ubitso’s intelligence. Bet that will be important.
- I’m not clear on where or why they got the weapons. And I’m not clear on why they are meant to fight this thing. Is this explained on the alternate pathes? I really feel like I missed a scene.
- I like the visual effect of the stone’s dialogue.
- Lol: “Could I take her gun, then?”
- Not letting the reader make a choice surrounding whether to accept the creature’s deal and/or sacrifice Sophie is a bit annoying. Generally major decisions made by the narrator should be left up to the reader (though in horror games, you do have some leeway with this). Since it never ended up mattering, it’s not as egregious.
- Good way of showing grief.
- “You killed the first one you faced.” Uh. Did they? Checked back, looks like they may have, though it was kind of unclear. I suggest making it clearer what the outcome of the first fight was.
- “She… used a big-kid word.” Lol.
- Ah, it seems I’ve reached the author’s notes. Does that mean these “a voice after death” endings are really the epilogues?
- Lol. Nothing like a panicked contest-driven writing binge.
- Hang on, does the creature of darkness ending imply there was a nuclear war?
- Any particular reason it’s got to be children?
- I like the way the narrator’s relationship with her father is only hinted at through the various pathes. It makes sense that her obsession with bravery is associated with him.
- I have a tough time seeing how suicide shows staying true to family. Wouldn’t that be giving up? Why not just shoot no one?
- I like the parallel of the pilogues taking place at the father’s grave. It’s a good way of tying them together, and directly showing how the narrator has been differently affected by her experiences.
- The glimpse into Mila’s psyche is interesting, as is the perspective shift. The underlying religious tones of the whole story are intriguing as well.
- Interesting that Sophie actually refers to Katya as a coward in her monologue. I’d assumed that was just Katya reading into the situation, and it was a one-sided rivalry.
- The sculpture appearing again in the ending is a nice touch.

Grammar:
Overall good.
I am thrilled to see, for the most part, a strong usage of dialogue tags. You have a lot of variety, and generally don’t feel the need to use obscure dialogue tags. You’re clearly comfortable tagging with actions, which is always nice. You can probably afford to use “said” more often, it’s not a taboo, and sometimes it really is the right word for the job.
Mastery of Language:
Pretty good! Overall, probably your greatest strength. The text flows together from one sentence to the next, and is easy and enjoyable to read. It does a good job delivering background information and description in a way that meshes well with the action. (For example: the description of Byed’s ‘hopping’ is deftly inserted into the scene.)
There are a couple clunky sentences interspersed throughout. Here are a few:
“It is not a child’s scream, no matter how much it sounds.” Ending with “sounds like one” would be neater.
“… Succeed, won’t meet the …” would be clearner as “…succeed, and won’t meet the …”
Tip: If you have a character directly respond to the phrasing of another, it’s best to put that phrasing at the end of their dialogue, SO when Mila responds with “not insane, realist,” it would make more sense if Sophie’s “Are you insane?” came instead at the end of her words.
“As if he only has the best of intentions” is a bit direct, you can probably get it across more subtely, with something like “smiles with concern” or another description. Admittedly, this is tougher to do with a rabbit.
“I know it can have that affect” should be effect.

Branching:
Excellent. 6 endings, with several of death options, and a wide variety of possible paths.

Player options/Fair choice:
This is alright? It could have been better. This is a horror game so this isn’t a very big deal either way.

PERSONAL EXPERIENCE:
I got killed for refusing to go with the rabbit. I knew in advance it was probably a death path, since if you refuse to go there’s clearly no story, but felt I had to explore the avenue anyways, since in real life it would be the most sensible option. Death voice agrees with me that this was the common sense option, so I suppose there’s that.

WRITING ADVICE:
Before I get into it, I first want to say this is excellently written. The writing is strong, the characterization is consistent, the ideas are good and interesting, and the plotting makes sense on most levels. I’m going to be giving some in-depth criticism, but it’s a credit to how far along this work is that I’m able to give such specific feedback. Kudos.
One major thing you have to work on is conciseness. Frequently, I felt that the story was dwelling too long on a particular point or scene, which could have been reduced and simplified to improve the flow of the narrative. This is probably something for you to work on in your editing rounds, writing out the full scene in a first draft is usually helpful, and then you can edit for pacing.
I also recommend having someone edit your story for coherence, or doing a couple readthroughs yourself along various paths. There were multiple points where I felt like I missed a scene, or hadn’t been given important information. Overall, I suggest working on your transitions to ensure that you’re actually being clear about all the information you’re trying to convey. Keeping the reader in the dark can be a good way to maintain a horror atmosphere, but it can be overdone.
The theme about what the “correct” choice of action was felt inconsistent to me. In some cases “cowardice” seemed to be rewarded, in other cases “bravery,” and it was unclear to me what made one action better than another. There are three possible reasons for this:
1) You didn’t have a consistent moral theme in mind while writing. If so, I recommend deciding from the outset what you’re trying to say, and ensuring that your story stays true to that message. This doesn't have to take sides on the issue, but it should be consistent, even if it's just 'things are complicated'.
2) You did choose a theme, but you failed to properly say what you meant while writing. If so, I recommend taking the time to examine each plot point and its consequences to ensure that they are in keeping with your story’s overall point.
3) You did choose a theme and execute it well, but for whatever reason I didn’t pick up on it. If so… uh, sorry, my bad.

CONCLUSION: Damn. Well, now I know why EndMaster adopted you. 7/8.

I would recommend this to anybody who is alright with the amount of violence toward children happening in this story. There’s a good amount of mystery and lore that’s enjoyable to search out through the different endings. I’m personally not at all a fan of reading horror, but while this is rather unsettling, I think it will appeal to a wider audience than just horror fans. I’m genuinely surprised that this hasn’t been read more often.

SPOILERS

One thing that definitely made the story more enjoyable for me was the fact that a clear, strong, and repeated theme was made obvious throughout. The children were clearly obsessed with being brave and felt shame at showing cowardice. It also makes it much more realistic that they begin this adventure in the first place. A lone child is very unlikely to follow a creepy talking rabbit down a hole, but several children together are much more likely to make the riskiest decision possible.

The morality of the villain, while not extremely original, is still a compelling motivation for evil. An immortal, extremely powerful being wants to die, but part of it also enjoys watching the children suffer and die. It just makes sense for a mentally ill god living under ground. I also really liked the revelations in the “water god” ending. Byed calling the parts of himself that he couldn’t control evils was a great characterization, and helped to understand the demented rabbit being.

The characterization of a few of the characters stands out really well. Mila, of the humans, certainly seems the most fleshed out. She seem to be some kind of child assassin, killing those who hypocritically serve her God. I don’t think it’s clear what religion, but I’m guessing it’s an Abrahamic one. She definitely adds a bit of interest to an otherwise ordinary group of little girls. The water god himself in his various parts and iterations also is characterized very well. Once the reader learns that all the underground characters are part of the same being, the idea of a miserable god holding onto the last of its sanity and looking for a way out emerges. It’s beautiful in a melancholy sort of way.

The formatting and grammar was well done as far as I could tell. All in all, it was a very interesting story. I only have a couple minor gripes:

The most glaring is that the children’s ages aren’t really made clear. Based on Mila’s accomplishments and their language, it seems like they must be in their late teens, but Byed called them children. That question didn’t ever seem to get answered (though I admittedly only did three endings).

It also seemed like there may be one or two too many instances when wet sounds or textures are described with maggots or leeches. It was definitely enough that it started to call attention to itself.

Another thing is that the names “Byed” and “Ubitso” seemed deliberate chosen, but I definitely couldn’t find any symbolism when I looked them up. If they do represent something, it might be better if that were a bit clearer.

That’s it. All in all, great job once again.

And I thought I was messed up... this brought me joy to read. The pain and suffering was wonderful!

First of all, I would like to say that I loved Byed. Such an amazing character. Not that anyone will care about my review, but I found it to be very suspenseful and exciting. I particularly enjoyed that you just don't care if Sophie dies or not and you'd rather her die than the rest of you. The constant battle of whether to or not to be a coward was a nice way to add choices to the story. Byed being the really evil bunny was such a fun little feature as well, and that he can act so nice but still root for these children's demise is just beautiful.

A few things I did not like...
I wish there had been a choice to shoot yourself, that should really be a personal choice in my opinion. I also wished more of Ubitso was shown in the story, I really liked him. Another thing was where did we get the ax? I didn't remember that happening.

Despite all that, I loved the gory imagery. One of my favorite features. I think I would have enjoyed hearing more about our backstory, and maybe I could have if I chose differently. The constant "Drip. Drip. Drip." was a nice feature and it really helped portray the constant looming presence of the water god. In general I would have liked to have seen more choices available throughout the story, but I can understand why they weren't there. I liked the way the story began with Byed and Ubitso and how it gave you a little bite of their world. This story was definitely worth the read, and the time.

I think I went a little bit insane reading this and my brain has permanently been rerouted. In a good way. I am now traumatized. Good job.

This is boring L game

Well done! It is very well written and provides a nice foreboding atmosphere throughout.

Perhaps SPOILERS:

This is a really good story in the horror category and I really liked the choice to let the fear build slowly. Though impending doom or death is constantly present, there is a good amount of the unknown regarding the current situation and what possible consequences may arise which add to the tension.

Characterization was really good. Not just the main but also supporting characters.

I enjoyed the character of Byed, and liked how creepy he got if you were not immediately doing what he wanted.

Katya was a good character. Obviously flawed from the open, but working to overcome what she perceives as her flaw. For me, this was a really good use of a tragic flaw because her efforts to counteract this seemed to always put her in a worse situation.

Sophie's character was also well done. And the competition felt between Katya and Sophie showed some nice childhood rivalry. I found it funny, but believable, that at times Katya was less concerned with survival than she was with outperforming Sophie.

The branching was well done, and all choices seemed to have consequences for the characters.

There are a few areas that I felt I was missing something in the narrative. Perhaps it was covered in a different branch that I didn't read but my general feeling is that most branches should be able to progress independently without confusing the reader.
For example, I didn't understand why they had to fight and found them at one point just waking up with weapons. In one instance before they committed suicide the entity said that it was the second one and that they killed the first. I was not aware of another confrontation.

These are minor continuity issues though and did not detract from my overall enjoyment of the story.

Overall: Definitely read this one. It is a good story with strong characters.

This was an interesting re-imagining of Alice's Adventure's in Wonderland (or Underland as it was originally called. Sort of Lewis Carol meets the splatter-punk sensibilities of Clive Barker and the dark morality of Harlan Ellison. I did catch a number of typos in the text and also a few comma splices and run-on sentences. I also would have liked us to have a greater sense of place for Katya and her friends. Their names make me think they're Russian and I'm assuming these are modern times. I liked that you can make your character make Faustian bargains as it were and then suffer the consequences. Is Katya supposed to be a precocious book reader by any chance? Why else would she consider dopamine effects on the brain? All in all, though, I think this is a very interesting work of Dark Fantasy with interesint ruminations on abuse, Time, Mortality, and kindess.

Horror isn't my genre, but I feel like this was reasonably well-executed. I particularly liked the multilayered dialogue of the monsters.

There were some discontinuities here and there. Some may be deliberate (characters can be inconsistent, readers can be asked to read between the lines), but... maybe explain how we go from breaking the stalactite to, well, the subsequent epilogue? (Trying to avoid spoilers here.)

Maybe it's just sticking out to me because that was the last epilogue I found, but I'd like that transition to not be completely glossed-over. Also, I still want to know why Byed is a rabbit, but maybe I'm overthinking it, and it's just a convenient non-threatening fuzzy lure for the children...