Non-threaded

Forums » Feature Wishing Well » Read Thread

Suggestions for improvements and additions to the site.
This feature was rejected 11/24/2015: We understand that a bunch of people want this. It's unfeasible from a technical standpoint.

Story trees: Another try

9 years ago

Hello!

Now, I know this is a feature that has been suggested and rejected twice over in the forums. Despite this, I would greatly appreciate you all hearing me out for this one.

By story tree, I refer to a two dimensional flow chart of the all the pages and the links between them. For example, take the two images below:

I feel strongly that implementing an automatic story-tree building mechanism, available to the authors during the editing of their works, would be massively advantageous and popular on two main grounds:

  • Story organization.

With the current tools, pages are listed in the order they are created, as are chapters. This method of organization provides zero indication of the relationships between the pages in a story. With a flow chart, however, it is immediately and intuitively clear exactly which pages link to and from a given page. Every choice is laid out visually in an accessible way, permitting even inexperienced users to create stories of a complexity far beyond what we currently see: The vast majority of the stories here consist entirely of trees where only one page links to a page, and each page leads to only two options. As an example, see the tree of Ground Zero I linked to above. Now, as this example goes to show, incredible pieces can be written this way, but it is exceedingly difficult to make stories that are more complex, when authors have no way to visualize their work. 

As Zikara (who provided the image of Ground Zero's story in the previous thread) mentioned, these trees can get big. Really big. And in order to navigate them, zoom and pan tools would be fairly certainly needed. I do not disagree with this, however, I argue that even with having to zoom and scroll around a large graphic depiction, both the overall layout and and fine linking structure of a story would be immeasurably easier to keep organized. 

  • Usability and popularity

Despite the rejection of this proposal in a previous thread, even a brief scan of said thread makes clear that this idea was massively attractive to a clear majority of commenters, with only one main detractor of the idea of automatic story trees. Several users voiced their enthusiasm for using story trees on their own in the creation of choose-your-own-adventure type pieces, and in writing more generally. I guarantee that similar opinions will be heard wherever writers and story-makes of all media can be found. The reason, as explained before, is obvious: A graphical representation is by far the easiest way to process, understand and manipulate the sort of data we work with here. As a related example, I work with syntax trees extensively in my field. Example: http://westonruter.github.io/svg-tree-drawer/old/sentence.png (not my image). The contents here do not matter, but notice that the relationship between each node on the tree is intuitively clear. You can see exactly which node connects to which other node. The current editor for stories here would represent that syntax tree as something like the following (that is, a list):

C'', what, C', C, is, T'', D'', D'', D', D, the, N'', N', N', boy,.....

You get the idea. There is no way to tell how anything connects to anything else here, and yet this is exactly the interface we use. Even when editing a page, it is difficult to tell which pages link to the page in question. It is very easy to get lost or confused even when working with simple, binary splitting story paths. If we want to create situations with several splits, loops, back linking, etc, lord help us. A tree would make these relationships intuitive. In the previous thread, the difficulty of representing the complexity introduced by scripting was brought up. This is an important point, but I feel that, however they might be represented (with dotted lines/ colors/ off to the side), it is still infinitely easier to keep track of and visualize than in the unorganized lists we have now!

 

I would be highly surprised if, if such an automatic tree creating interface were implemented, it proved unpopular. In fact, I expect that it would become the editing method of choice, so long as, say, you could click on a page and edit it from there. This is not to say we should do away with the linear representation of pages we have now. Both tools should be available alongside each other. But, I'd venture to bet that most users would quickly migrate.

Here is the link to the other main thread where this was discussed: http://chooseyourstory.com/forums/feature-wishing-well/message/12515

Thanks for your consideration.

Story trees: Another try.

9 years ago
I think it would do well, and this is a very well thought out suggestion. However, implementation. The code, the interface interactivity, the JS, the CYS scripts/variables involved, especially (but not exclusively) long storygames with massive amounts of pages - I just can't predict how difficult this is going to be as a workload for alexp. If you can get some baseline code or even theoretical code - I think it would help this wish a lot.

Things currently holding this wish back:
  • Coding and workload difficulty for implementation.
  • Large stories may pose problems.
  • The current advanced editor works fine for (almost*) all intents and purposes.


*what it doesn't do by default can be done through manual customization - this doesn't include story trees

Aesthetic functionality - Story trees would look fantastic, simple, and would provide the author the ability to easily manage their storygame to maximum efficiency. However, developers are, in this case, often not users and so they don't particularly pay attention unless the majority of their users are complaining or wishing - which the majority of users are not. The balance of highly complex implementation and the user's wish is a ratio that does not favor the user. Which is why you need to persuade the implementer (alexp) with practicality, functionality, and ease (assuming alexp doesn't like a large complicated workload). Which this wish has neither of. The neutrals on the subject are counted against, not for - because the vast majority is a combination of people who don't care or who find no problem with the current advanced editor.

It is a very good wish, and I would be equally impressed and elated to see this come to fruition, but I just don't see it happening; at least not without a suggestion on how to implement this. I'm glad you have the logic laid out, but without code to back it up I have many doubts and concerns.

Story trees: Another try.

9 years ago

You make excellent points, particularly about the scale of this project.

After some research, I found a similar site to this one, http://www.cyocyoa.com/, which makes an automatic, live-updated and directly manipulable story tree. Perhaps this could give some clues as to implementation. Now, I prefer this site here for a number of reasons, such as the ability to use variables/restrictions/scripting, not to mention the massive and involved community, and as such won't be migrating to the site I linked, but I suggest it be checked out for ideas.

One thing is, the tree I envision need not be quite so graphically fancy as the one in that website, if you check it out as I suggest you do (it's a free account). There, you can drag around each page/node. I think it would be vastly simpler to have a tree where you can click on pages to edit them, but without the ability to interact with it in real time. Rather, the tree image could be recompiled after each edit. This should be a bit simpler. 

Aside from that, I must admit that aside from a little Python and a good amount of LaTeX, I lack the coding experience needed to actually get this started. I'd be absolutely willing to help out in any way I can, though.

A last point, you say that most users here are completely fine with the current state of the editor. True as this may be, I think that, with no insult intended, this may be a case of not knowing what we're missing. I contend that, after the undoubtedly difficult task of actually implementing this feature, we will see an immediate expansion of story complexity, quality, length and content. Once present, such a tree representation can only make our creative work easier, more intuitive and, well, more fun.

Story trees: Another try

9 years ago
Wont happen. Scripting, along with items, make this a huge undertaking. One not worth the result of "people will like it!".

Its not a bad idea on paper, but the system in place just doesnt allow for it to be reasonably done.

Story trees: Another try

9 years ago

That's why it would be optional. If it doesn't correlate with scripting or items or variables, it would be quite easy to change it back to the normal editor. Added, most people don't script on this site that are making stories.

Story trees: Another try

9 years ago

I'd love something like this, and it would be a hugely useful tool, but it's purely wishful thinking. alexp doesn't have the time for the site he used to and so it doesn't matter how many people are for the idea, it's a vast, complex undertaking and not one I see as realistically ever happening.

Story trees: Another try

9 years ago

Fible: The book of Exittus, 23:26, 28:31

And THE LARD spake his fourty-second commandment unto Jose,(23) "And writeth this upon thy rocks: Thou shalt not repeatedly ask for story trees and flowcharts to be implemented unto the site they call Chooseyourstory.com, which shall be made not much more than 5,900 years from now.(24) For I hath demandified that it shall be impossible, and that (25) any man who dares defy mine will shall be met with tribulations, archaic script errors, and legions of violent clowns.(26)"
*Verse 27 in all forms has been censored by the Space Jews of Horek, who have decided that humanity is not worthy to know its secrets yet.
Jose was distraught, and asked, "But Lard, how will we live without story trees 5,900 years from now!?"(28) and THE LARD spake,(29) "Worryeth not, Jose,(30) but obligate thy people to follow these words of wisdom: 'Map shit out on Twine, write shit out on CYS.'"(31)

The word of our Lard.

Story trees: Another try

9 years ago

The Lard has spoken- thanks you lard for telling us where to go for our needs.