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Disabling the 'Back' button

7 years ago

I'm working on an interrogation sequence for my next game, and I'm trying to make the player feel that every option has consequence (e.g. you can't interrogate a person after you've accidentally knocked them out/permanently) and the decision has risk/reward tradeoffs (e.g. do you offer him a smoke or beat him up > which will make him talk). Problem is, this sort of choice/outcome is immediately made pointless by the 'Back' button option. Is there a way to disable it (perhaps just for this sequence?). The game is more of a storyGAME, hence the importance on the outcome of a decision being variable.

Disabling the 'Back' button

7 years ago

There was a big conversation about disabling the BACK button, years ago. (Most are against it) Can't find it right now, but this is the next closest thing to that conversation.

http://chooseyourstory.com/forums/newbie-central/message/16168

Disabling the 'Back' button

7 years ago

Alright, thanks for the heads up.

I still need to disable backs for the sake of immersion. As that thread rightly mentions, random numbers are un-rolled by going back, but that's not my problem here.

My problem is the player seeing an unfavorable story outcome and running backwards, nullifying its impact. Say 'using a hammer' at an advanced stage of the interrogation leads to the person being interrogated dying, and the interrogation's outcome being a failure (which is accounted for within the story, so no non-standard game over). I want the shock value of that outcome to be unaffected by the 'cheapness' of the back option.

I'm not out to remove 'Back' to be adversarial, but to make the narrative impact meaningful. Aerith dying wouldn't be meaningful if you could somehow 'Back' out of it. 

One (weak) workaround is to add a 'buffer' page e.g. on decision page you choose 1, 2, or 3, and then buffer page is the same, but the other options are greyed out. It'd easily be reversed by two 'back' actions, but it would kind of convey the objective, but slowing down gameplay to an uncomfortable level.

The other potential solution I have is a bit more crafty and challenging for me at the same time - hardcoded dice rolls. As in, at the start of every game I roll for every single *hidden* dice roll, and the only way to change an outcome is to restart the game from scratch - this doesn't prevent players from going back, but does prevent them from getting 'better' rolls (such as what I did myself in Berka's Dungeon Stompage). Still not optimal though, as the player will just avoid certain outcome paths after seeing what works and what doesn't, but it's a slight compromise better than encouraging degeneracy via back/rolling.

Disabling the 'Back' button

7 years ago
I've wanted to disable it for the same reasons, and I know it's possible using javascript somehow, but it's probably not worth the effort because Right Click > Go back is still a thing.

Disabling the 'Back' button

7 years ago

To be fair, Alt + Left also works on most browsers, but there has to be something out there that can solve this dilemma. @BerkaZerka @Bradindvorak ideas?

Disabling the 'Back' button

7 years ago

Found the conversation.

http://chooseyourstory.com/forums/feature-wishing-well/message/6322

Enjoy the old school drama!

Disabling the 'Back' button

7 years ago

Alright, thanks for linking that discussion. I'll try to keep my response to meaningful points

As things are right now, the site (and its authors and players) have grown up with the Back option being ever-present. This is fine, this is the way things are, the site was derived from CYoA books, which obviously had the back option IRL. CYS Games have been written with the express knowledge that mistakes can be undone by going back, and the player base knows this. Due to this common norm, 'throwaway' paths and joke endings exist, and that's fine. 

In general, for a normal game, disabling back is a bad idea. It would feel restrictive, and unskilled authors would make otherwise good games painful. An otherwise good game could throw a player into an unwinnable state down the line, which be adversarial. This is a genuine concern, and I agree with it. 

Now for the nuance.

At advanced levels of design, for what I'll call the Aerith reason, some choices are far more meaningful when permanent. 

If the author is capable of making a game where 'failures' lead to interesting conclusions, the player is hurting their experience by running away from them by using Back (because they're conditioned that a 'bad' path is a dead end so they promptly go Back when they see a bad description in the first few lines). Since they've grown up in an environment where an ever-present Back has been a crutch, they're unintentionally spoiling their own experience.  

In a lot of modern games, Ironman mode is a respected playstyle (and no honor system is going to stop me from reloading the accidental death of my namesake in XCOM without an enforced Ironman, speaking from experience here, damned falling damage). Paradox (Crusader Kings, Stellaris, Europa Universalis) only gives achievements in Ironman mode. XCOM Ironman is a whole different beast than cowardly reload-play. These games know that decisions are meaningful when irreversible, the mental frame of the player (the experience) is way different than playing with 'Backsies.' I want to create that experience. 

SindrIV mentioned the problems of a failed boss fight (or any late game challenge) in a game with no back option spoiling a long-running game. The thing is, we have save-games that can be reloaded - the author could outright mention that this is a good place to save the game if they want to get all paths. If there's an option to automatically create a save-game the moment the player reaches a challenging 'instance,' from where they can reload combat or a skill challenge, that's fine by me - it makes the challenge itself meaningful, while not being adversarial (preventing the player from ever reloading would be adversarial). In fact, I'd be in favor of just adding a 'back to start of combat' link along with an End Game link in those moments. The win is meaningful when there's a risk of failure, and therein lies the crux of my argument for this system.

Quizzes on this site already implicitly do this when they don't show changes in score after each question. They hide the final result till the end, so the ending feels meaningful. Would Briar's excellent and devilish quizzes be as challenging (and be as rewarding in success) if you could immediately know if you answered correctly or not? No, they wouldn't. Hiding the outcome of a choice is a form of preventing players from being able to use Back. 

I could build the interrogation sequence where I ask the player to 'lock in' their choices like a quiz (e.g. talk > talk > shout > hammer) but that makes for extremely unresponsive gameplay, (as the outcome is only known after the final choice, like a quiz) and thus I'd rather not go down this route (due to the lack of feedback to the player's actions).

In summary, I request authors (on request and not by default) be allowed to disable back at certain parts of the game, but saving definitely be a thing in those cases. In cases where there is no alternate path (e.g. boss fights), death pages should have a back to start of fight page, while disallowing saves and 'Back' during combat. 

I hope I've been able to adequately explain my reasons, please let me know if otherwise.

Also, for some reason I imagined everything on that thread having a mullet for some weird reason.

Disabling the 'Back' button

7 years ago
Aerith wasn't a choice, so I'm not sure why you feel it's a relevant example.

Paradox games (and others) have ways to reload play anyway. In paradox's case players just make copies of their save file and reload that.

Players who want to cheat will find a way to. All preventing back does is annoy people. Your justification that it helps immersion doesn't trump that, nor does it trump the effort that would be required to implement the change (assuming it's even possible).

Disabling the 'Back' button

7 years ago

Aerith wasn't a choice, but if there were an alternative path where she lived, ceteris paribus, her death wouldn't have been the landmark outcome it was (most players would go for the option where she lived). Another example - Kaiden vs Ashley from Mass Effect - someone had to die, if both survived it wouldn't have been meaningful.

Players who can cheat will cheat, no surprises there, but I argue that the population who will do so are a subset of the larger gaming populace, who will enjoy meaningful choices. Some Paradox players will go Ironman, and will save scum, but even there the inherent nuisance of that method discourages save-loading in vain. It makes for a different, and I argue, richer experience. Some stories are stronger from limiting choice (but not all).

Also, through the reload to save-point design, I'm trying to prevent frustration while allowing challenge.

e: What are your thoughts on the pre-rolled design version? In that, players can use back, it just doesn't change the outcome (resembling a non-variable based story like Eternal)

Disabling the 'Back' button

7 years ago
If they enjoy meaningful choices they won't go back.

I get the point that you're making, but unless it leads to a dead end, most people will continue playing even if something goes wrong.

Locking in their choices (I'm assuming that's what you mean by preroll) is fine. Often the best way to use choices is to make the impact unknown until later on.

Disabling the 'Back' button

7 years ago
Absolutely not worth it.

The annoyance level will far out-way the immersion and it will cause the game to either get hate-rated in retaliation or not rated at all, meaning a glacial pace to ever being ranked.

The more effective/difficult solution, is to write compelling reasons to continue down wrong paths.

Disabling the 'Back' button

7 years ago

My apprehension is that players, being attuned to insta-backing out of bad endings, will never reach the interesting outcomes I've built down the 'bad' outcome route. 

Also, no-backing out during an interrogation just makes sense - experientially. I get it that players will be unhappy if the outcome is bad, but if I give a back to start of interrogation link in certain circumstances?

Alternately, what are your thoughts on the pre-rolled design version? In that, players can use back, it just doesn't change the outcome (like a non-variable based story like Eternal)

Disabling the 'Back' button

7 years ago

Or, you know, just give players the benefit of the doubt and tell them in the description that the experience will be better w/o the back button.

Disabling the 'Back' button

7 years ago
I think most people will actually play all the way down the path they are on till it leads to an end - then go back if they find the resolution unsatisfactory.

Disabling the 'Back' button

7 years ago
This argument pops up all the time regarding Undo in interactive fiction.

Most players are going to play through to an End game link, and if the writing can keep their attention, afterwards spend time looking at alternate paths. Unless a game is just really dire and I want to grab my point and move on, I always click around before a review to figure out how much the choices actually matter. And yes, removal of the ability to go back would be extremely annoying in that case, I don't want to be forced to restart entirely after every dead end.

Expecting authors to use such a feature with any kind of restraint, in a non-obnoxious manner is asking a lot, too. (Remember you're talking about giving random scrubs the ability to change the way your browser works.) And basically, even if everyone agreed this was a 100% good idea, I doubt the amount of coding involved is anything simple or trivial.

Also the FF7 example is kind of a bad one. Not being able to back out of choices, or anything involving choice at all has nothing to do with a hackneyed moment in a linear plot intended to wring tears out of 13 yr old nerds for their lost waifu.

Disabling the 'Back' button

7 years ago

Alright, after due consideration, and everyone's feedback, I believe I'll be going for the pre-rolled design instead of requesting a cancel the back button design. I will also add a note to players to avoid using the back option, and that different playthroughs will change outcomes (may even add a variable tweaker for players who want to replay after completion and get different outcomes)

Thank you everyone for your kind feedback

In parting, I would however like to offer two articles about the quest Seeking Mr. Eaten's Name, arguably the most famous quest in all of Fallen London (and a much better example than Aerith about irreversible decisions). The quest causes the player to irreversibly (and intentionally) destroy their character (which they'll have to have worked on for a sizeable amount of time to be able to qualify for the quest). Just the first step of the quest reduces one skill permanently by an amount it would take a year to rebuild, so the authors are clear they're not messing around in this one.

The Author's own words in 2013 (apparently Alexis also wanted the quest to delete the player account upon completion, but his partners wanted to be able to sleep at night)

Looking back on the quest and it's impact on players By RPS in 2016.

The quest was taken down in 2013, but was put back up late last year, to great enthusiasm.

Disabling the 'Back' button

7 years ago
Small addenda, I've figured out a way within the games mechanics and design to discourage choosing 'all correct' choices. Will share more after I've got it working.