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J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago

Okay, myadventuregame.com community, it doesn't seem anyone else has truly done this yet, so here's a bit of information on the greatest fantasy author of the twentieth century, John Ronald Reuel Tolkien.  Let's start with some "fun facts":

  • He was born on January 3, 1892, in Bloemfontein, South Africa, of British colonists in the present-day Free State Province.
  • He had a brother, Hilary Arthur Reuel Tolkien, who was born on February 17, 1894.
  • When Tolkien was three, he and his family traveled to England to visit family. 
  • His father, however, died of rheumatic fever, and his mother, Mabel, took the children to live with her parents.
  • In 1900, Mabel, a Baptist, converted to Catholicism.
  • Four years later, she died of medical difficulties resulting from diabetes.
  • For some reason or another, young John (or Ronald as he was known in the family) always considered her something of a martyr for Catholicism, and remained a devout Catholic for the rest of his life.
  • He married Edith Mary Bratt in 1916.  This came about in a very interesting manner, and I'm sure I'll add to it in time.
  • Tolkien was a great intellectual, an Oxford professor, and a fellow of Pembroke.  This is also very interesting, and will be elaborated upon in the future.
  • His first novel, The Hobbit, was published on September 21, 1937 (one day before Bilbo and Frodo's shared birthday, for the particularly knowledgeable reading this), followed by The Lord of the Rings, his masterpiece, which boasted a darker tone, more in-depth plot, and of course three ample spines....
  • The first volume, The Fellowship of the Ring, was published in 1954, after having been written between '37 and '49, followed by The Two Towers and The Return of the King  in 1955.
  • Note that The Lord of the Rings was a SINGLE NOVEL.  In fact, Tolkien would have actually preferred it to have been published in a single book; the three titles we know today only exist for convenience.
  • The rest of his works relating to his legendarium, such as The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, and both volumes of The Book of Lost Tales, were published after his death in 1973 by his youngest son Christopher.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
I still think the booksare a trilogy, dude.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago

Go cry about it

 

Good writing.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
I infer that your first comment was for PrinceOProvidence, and the second one was for me.  Thanks, I guess.  As for you, PrinceOProvidence, say what you will, but all the official sources are on my side.  While I'm thinking of it, does anyone have anything to say about the kings of Gondor and the line of Isildur?

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago

Alright, I can see that no one does, so I guess I'll write some more "fun facts" about Tolkien's life:

  • In 1908, when he was sixteen, he met his future wife, Edith Bratt, who was nineteen years old at the time.
  • The young couple "fell in love", as they say, but Tolkien's legal guardian (recall that both of his parents were deceased by this point in his life), a priest, would have none of it; he forbade the young Tolkien to have ANY contact with her until he was TWENTY-ONE (21) years of age.
  • Tolkien reluctantly obeyed him, but, nearly five years later, on the night of his twenty-first birthday, he wrote a letter to Edith professing his love and asking her to wed.
  • Although she already engaged to another man (believing Tolkien had forgotten her), she agreed, and the two were married on March 22, 1916.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
Good facts

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
Thanks, JJJ-thebanisher! 

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago

I think a trilogy is dependant on the intent of the writer.  Tolkien wrote one book and called it "The Lord of the Rings."  The publishers made him split it into three parts.

Side example:  Tad Williams's "Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn" trilogy.  The third book was published in two parts.  It's still a trilogy.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
True.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
Very true, and an interesting thing to "miss" on a quiz where I could argue two other choices as well. While Tolkien did not at first consider his work a trilogy, I believe he thought LOTR was a book and the Silmarillion a book, some sort of dualist endeavor, that is not to say that LOTR is not a trilogy, for trilogies are dictated by editors and publishers, not authors, quite often. I wouldn't mind that question if it said, "What JRR originally considered a trilogy," or something. Anyway, that must be what I missed.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago

True actually LOTR was a trilogy undoubtedly however that was not the way J.R.R Tolkien wanted it to be.  Look up the definintion of Trilogy, LOTR matches it perfectly.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago

I will change that answer on my quiz, but not because I agree with you--look at the official source, guys!  That man's trilogy (I've momentarily forgotten his name.  Sorry... ) ideally should not be called a trilogy either.  I would define a trilogy (no matter what the modern dictionaries say!) as three independent, but inter-connected stories, whereas The Lord of the Rings is one continuous story.  The Fellowship of the Ring does not have an end, but just kind of abruptly halts after the fellowship is broken.  The Two Towers has neither a beginning nor an ending--it begins and ends at two nearly abitrary points in the story.  The Return of the King has no beginning, but an ending.  If one who had not read the novel before were to check the second or third volume out of a library, he/she would have absolutely no idea what was happening in the first chapters (unless of course he/she saw the Peter Jackson films, which I think are decent even if they did take some liberties, particularly in The Return of the King).  A modern example of a trilogy that I'm sure all of us are familiar with is the classic StarWars films.  Each one of them has a distinct beginning and a distinct ending, and, when taken together, form a complete, inter-connected story.

And also, The Silmarillion isn't some "weird, dualist" thing.  Dualism is the belief in two equal-but-opposite divine figures, usually representing good and evil, emphasizing the balance of life and the universe.  The Silmarillion features one all-powerful god--Eru, the One--and a number of created angelic beings--the Valar and Maiar--, some of which "fall" (their leader being Melkor, later known as Morgoth), and become like the demons of religion and mythology. 

 

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago

I would define a trilogy (no matter what the modern dictionaries say!) as three independent, but inter-connected stories

So waht your saying is that, your opinion is "more right" then a dictionary.

Thats funny.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
Interestingly, George Lucas never considered the Star wars "trilogy" to be a trilogy at all.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
You misunderstood me. JRR considered the LOTR and the Silmarillion to be a dualist work when taken together. I understand dualism quite well, and need no teaching from you, though I appreciate your candor, knowledge, and articulation.

You see, he believed that the Silmariliion was to be the companion to LOTR, and that LOTR was not meant to be three books, but rather one with its companion. Look, then, and see the dualism. Sauron and Eru, if you will, for what was Sauron, but arisen from these fallen deities?

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
Regardless LOTR IS a trilogy.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
Right, that was my original point.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
I know, Im agreeing with you.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
Seriously though, guys (and/or girls, to be politically correct), I've done my research.  This isn't some crazy story I wrote overnight and decided to post on the forums.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
Regardless it is a trilogy.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
I was going to reply to this but I'm too tired to argue anymore. It all comes down to believing that whatever the author originally intended makes it what it is. Which it doesn't.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago

Precisely, what the author intended has nothing to do with it.. Its about the number of books.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago

But there are three volumes, JJJ and others, not three books.  There are six books.

"The Lord of the Rings is often erroneously called a trilogy when in fact it is a single novel, consisting of six books, published for convenience in three volumes..." --page v of The Fellowship of the Ring, Houghton-Mifflin.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago

Im done arguing. You cannot change my mind.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
I don't know who has won, but I'm pretty sure it's Sir Gala-whatever. JJJ, are you sure you're done arguing, or are you just saying that because you lost?

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
Hey dude its principally Madglee vs Sir_Galawain I am just supporting madglee. madglee is of course, correct.  I am done arguing because I am far too bored.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
To repeat: Lancegawain, you are not understanding the argument. First of all, even amongst "Ringers" or "Tolkienists" there is debate over whether or not it is a trilogy. As I said before, even if JRR intended it to be one story, the publisher decided to release it as a trilogy. The argument, then, really forms around whether or not you believe the author's intention is therefore the be all end all of reality. In the publishing world, it certainly is not. Therefore, from a rational point of view, the books are a trilogy, since that's what the publishers decided on - whether or not JRR intended it to be. So if your argument is, "JRR intended LOTR to be one book" I agree; to say, LOTR IS a trilogy is incorrect. And, since you quoted someone, I decided to quote another "expert," Kevin Black, from Onering.net.

"For those who don't know, The Lord of the Rings is a fantasy novel by John Ronald Reul Tolkien, which is set in the world of Middle Earth. The book is so long that it took Tolkien twelve years to write it, and when it was finished the publisher decided to split it up into three parts and release it as a trilogy, naming each part The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, and The Return of the King."

I've explained myself as clearly as possible, and am now finished.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
Hey, why did you take down the ratings on your LOTR and Hobbit quizzes? I was first!

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
You are first, madglee.  I just wasn't really in the mood to update the average scores the day I removed those items.  I felt that if one were to be removed then the other shouldn't be left either.  Don't worry, though; I'll put the high scores back soon enough.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago

And on this ongoing trilogy-or-novel debate, I'm not quoting an expert--everyone knows "experts" cannot agree on anything!    I'm quoting the publishers, the same publishers you claim made The Lord of the Rings a trilogy.  By the way, I detest the term "Ringers".  It is the name I apply to people who have read "LOTR" as you call it, and nothing else of Tolkien's, barring perhaps The Hobbit.  Also, I'll take the word of the author for a million dollars, madglee.  Publishers have a tendency to think with dollar signs in their eyes....

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
Yes they do, but that doesnt change anything.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
The first publishers, Allen & Unwin, published it in three books in 1954/55. Houghton-Mifflin published the first American edition in the same year, in 3 books. So they may claim whatever they want, but they made it a trilogy when it was published in three separate books. Publishers definitely have a tendency to think with dollar signs, but that's a moot point. All we're really arguing over is semantics.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
I am quite aware of Allen & Unwin's British publication, and that the original Houghton-Mifflin publicationg was in three volumes, but that does not make The Lord of the Rings a trilogy!!!!!  There is a difference between volumes and books!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
A book is a phsyical thing you can hold.  I have three BOOKS of the lord of the rings. THATS A TRILOGY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
The American Heritage Dictionary defines a volume as (notice this is the first definition):

1. a. A collection of written or printed sheets bound together; a book.

This argument is wearing on my nerves, so I'm finished with it.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago

madglee, we know your right.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago

"The Lord of the Rings is an epic high fantasy novel  written by English academic J.R.R. Tolkien.  The story began as a sequel to Tolkien's earlier fantasy book, The Hobbit and soon developed into a much larger story. It was written in stages between 1937 and 1949, with much of it being created during World War II.  It was originally published in three volumes in 1954 and 1955 (much to Tolkien's annoyance, since he had intended it to be a single volume), and has since been reprinted numerous times and translated into at least 38 languages, becoming one of the most popular works in 20th-century literature."

--http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lord_of_the_Rings 

(Emphasis mine on the word novel.)

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago

AND my second American edition of The Oxford Desk Dictionary and Thesaurus offers some interesting secondary definitions for the word book including, and I quote:

"main division of a literary work, or of the Bible".

Just as the Bible is a single volume consisting of sixty-six independent books, or Homer's Iliad is divided into twenty-four books, all of which form a single epic, the three volumes, even call them books if you like (the distinction I made earlier wasn't technical--I merely needed a second word to use alongside volume), of The Lord of the Rings form a single complete novel.

So The Fellowship of the Ring can be called a book, just as, say, the Acts of the Apostles, but is ultimately only a single installment in a complete novel, like the books of Acts is only one part of the Christian Bible.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago

The books were published under a 'profit-sharing' arrangement, whereby Tolkien would not receive an advance or royalties until the books had broken even, after which he would take a large share of the profits. An index to the entire three-volume set at the end of third volume was promised in the first volume. However, this proved impractical to compile in a reasonable timescale. Later, in 1966, four indices, not compiled by Tolkien, were added to The Return of the King. Because the three-volume binding was so widely distributed, the work is often referred to as the Lord of the Rings "trilogy". In a letter to W. H. Auden, Tolkien himself made use of the term "trilogy" for the work.

Same source you used buddy.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago

"One of the most popular "trilogies" of fantasy books, The Lord of the Rings by J. R. R. Tolkien, is not a trilogy, though it is often referred to as such. Tolkien regarded it as a single work and divided it into a prologue, six books, and five appendices. Because of post-World War II paper shortages, it was originally published in three volumes."

--EXACT same source as you used, JJJ. 

(I was too lazy to remove the hyperlinks this time....)

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
Look, I'm as tired of arguing this as anyone.  No one is going to change his/her mind here.  Whether a novel or a trilogy or a kitchen sink, I think we can all agree that it is among the best literary works of our age.   

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
Yes it is. Why did I ever say anything about trilogy or novel....

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
Only you can answer that, my young friend....

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago

"A trilogy is a set of three works of art, usually literature or film, that are connected and can generally be seen as a single work as well as three individual ones" (per Wikipedia, emphasis mine.)

How's that for a compromise?

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
Well, as... I think it was madglee, but I can't remember... stated earlier, it all depends on whether or not one takes the word of the author over the others, which I do.  But come, let's not rub salt in the wound.  Let's get past this trilogy/novel debate, please!!!

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
And we proclaim madglee victorious.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
I'm going to choose not to respond to this.  (Oops!  I just did!)  Do all these direct quotes stating that The Lord of the Rings is a single novel mean nothing to you guys?!?!?!? 

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
As this thread was originaly intended for, I would now like to talk about Tolkien's works. How about Farmer Giles of Ham or The Smith of Wooten Major? They may not be major works, but I'm quite fond of them.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago

Actually its J.R.R Tolkien and his works. So thats not true Prince.

As for you Lance, I believe you have disregarded at least as many.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
Well, I was actually right, Jx3. The thread was for talking about Tolkien and his works, and talking about his works is one of its uses.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
Yes but changing the subject from the other use that weer were on and then saying waht you said is going to be taken the wrong way. Although you are right principally, you are wrong in effect.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
Look (Ironic... you can't exactly see me sitting in front of my computer and typing this....), I haven't ignored any direct quotations stating that The Lord of the Rings is a trilogy.  Find me one reliable, official, authoritative quotation that says, in these or similar words, "J.R.R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings is a trilogy".  Find one.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago

GIVE IT UP GUYS!!! Is it really important whether it's a trilogy or novel?!?!

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
PrinceOProvidence, please don't take this in a "bad" way, but... I think you're a little late to the party; everyone else already has given it up!

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
I dropped out of this argument long ago, like I said I would. LOTR is a great story. Let's just leave it at that, this is a waste of time, arguing about semantics. We may as well start a whole thread on utilitarian vs. kantian ethics and lose our minds if we're going to play these games.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
Well, I never really viewed the trilogy/novel debate as one related, beyond the surface at least, to semantics, but I will agree that it was rather pointless.

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
Strong. Back to writing stories!

J.R.R. Tolkien and his works

17 years ago
Has anyone ever read The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien?