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Coincidentally Mizal's just done one of these, but I think it's time for another "Hey look at this thing Steve hates". You know, Logan, 13 Reasons Why, all that shit. Today, I read the famous comic The Killing Joke, and it was just terrible.

Once again, some good things. The art was pretty cool. In the flashbacks they had this cool "Everything's black and white except for certain things that was interesting, like watching Red Hood run through a black and white universe in terror. The ending was pretty cool, as it had an ambiguous did Batman kill the Joker or not, but honestly, besides that the entire thing was mediocre. Oh yeah, and there was a few cool images, like the Joker on a throne of plastic baby dolls. Although, even worse, apparently the ending wasn't even supposed to be ambiguous in the first place, as the script just says they laugh together, in which case not only is the ending then shit, but the art is now so bad is caused mass confusion that the writers just went with. Onto the complaints!

Well, the plot is really split into two bits, the Joker's back story, and what happens in the present day. I will first do the Joker's back story. Basically, he does a one time robbery to help his pregnant wife, the pregnant wife dies in accident and in the robbery the Joker falls into chemicals and gets all screwed up. This actually works back to what I was saying about mystery the other day. The Joker has always been a fascinating character, especially with his multiple-choice background. What happened to make him so crazy? While the comic does add a hint of that with the unreliable narrator, either the flashback story isn't true, in which case it's a waste of my time as it doesn't reveal much about the Joker, or it is, in which case it's ruined the Joker as a character. Having the Joker be entirely unknown made him so interesting, so fascinating as we wondered what made him so mad? Finding out?

It ruined him. He was given a mediocre back story, hardly enough to make how insane he is even seem plausible. A disfiguring and a dead wife and child is... I mean, it's bad, but it's pretty much the back story for countless super-heroes and villains. It certainly isn't Joker worthy. Instead, the Joker was a bad comedian who got burnt trying to rob... a playing card factory? Why the fuck were they even trying to rob a playing card factory? I guess it was just that unreliable narrator. Anyway, he just kind of acts like a vaguely sad bitch after his wife and kid die, but yet a bit of disfiguration is enough to push that to the Joker. Lame.

Anyhow, then there's the time in the present day. Nothing particularly interesting here. I mean, the Joker breaks out by... something, and gets someone into his cell impersonating him by... something. This guy impersonates the Joker in his cell for long enough for the Joker to make plans to buy a carnival and set up a bunch of things about, because the Joker's cell is really dark for some reason. Why is the Joker in a cell where he's not visible? Ah... well, you know.

The Joker then cripples Barbara Gordon and kidnaps Commissioner Gorden, taking him to the amusement park where all the freaks that used to work there are now totally willing to work (for free, I'd imagine. The Joker doesn't seem to be rolling in cash.) driving a Police Commisioner insane because... well you know, people who look different from us are all evil and sadistic. It's not even like it's the Jokers personal crew who he turned mad long ago, he's had access to these guys for a few hours at most, as it's clear they work for the carnival he just bought, but you know, even after killing their boss, they're totally up for being evil.

Anyway, Joker tries to turn Gordon insane through a Carnival ride where he basically just monologs and shows him pictures of his shot daughter, which honestly falls flat. Batman shows up and the Freaks just run away, which is a shame, because the only thing I was looking forward to was seeing Batman fight them. Batman fights the Joker as he continues monologging, and literally manages to almost win by pulling Batman's cowl slightly down, which somehow prevents Batman from just wailing on him (seeing as he's literally holding him). Then they fight, the Joker does a fairly funny bit where he almost shoots Batman but a flag pops out, and then Batman tries to offer the Joker to try be rehabilitated. Joker refuses, tells a fairly shit joke, they all laugh. Even after the Joker "shot a defenseless girl" and "terrorized an old man", but Batman's in laughing mood. Some of you might try point out that that was ambiguous, but apparently the script just says they laugh. So it was terrible. To all you superhero nerds who liked it, you're idiots. Same for those of you who liked Logan, while I'm here.

Well, off to the next thing. Oh, while I'm here, a few things I did enjoy, to show you I'm not all hate.

• Clone High: Pretty good show. It's really funny, has a lot of historical jokes and is basically just satire of the whole high-school genre.
• Pandorum: Got 28% on Rotten Tomatoes, but I thought it was pretty good. I mean, flawed as hell, but I think it's definitely enjoyable.
• It Follows: Terrific horror film, one of the best I've seen.
• The Witch: Super interesting, definitely one of the best horror films I've seen as well. The girl in it is pretty hot, until she's in Split, when she somehow isn't.
• Rocky Horror Picture Show: Ah, joy. This is a joyful thing.
• Psychonauts: I've heard about it a lot, but I recently played it, and it's great.

There. Watch (or play) those instead of these shitty things I constantly talk about.

The backstory was bland and awful and absolutely not worthy of the Joker, but I'm assuming they've changed it sixteen times since then because that's just what comics do.

It's been changed a couple times in other stories, but for whatever reason the Killing Joke origin seems to stick. Might be because it was written by Alan Moore, though he hates the story, but then again Alan Moore pretty much hates everything he ever wrote back in the 80s. Plus the whole event is considered "canon" due to Barbra getting crippled and caused a shitstorm of drama.

Feminists got in a tizz about it, along with saying the Joker RAPED Barbra, but there really isn't any indication the Joker did that to her and merely took pics of her naked to try to make her dad go nuts.

Funny enough there was an original plan that the Joker was going to have some goons RAPE Gordon on top of everything else he does, but they nixed that idea.

Isn't the Joker gay now anyway? He could've done it himself.

There's 3 Jokers now in the new 52, and one of them has a Sombra haircut, so they could be any combination of sexualities.

I wouldn't say the back story not being true would be a waste, since before this the Joker having a multiple-choice history was just something implied by retcons and maybe a few lines here and there, but never really something that was explored or set in stone in stories like this. Sadly, because dweebs treat Alan as an infallible writer god, there hasn't actually been a story like this since, so multiple choice history is just something that Alan brought up, and other versions subsequently ruined by canonizing it.

Personally, I do think some versions of the Joker do/would benefit from an origin story. "THA MYSTERY!!!" in itself is not a law of jokerhood that determines whether this version would be better. For certain jokers, it doesn't matter and would definitely take away from their presence and atmosphere. Indomitable, mercurial forces of chaos like the Animated Series' joker and the Serious House joker would be dumb if they were made human. He would be too mortal to fear when he's being a creep, and too tragic to laugh at in genuinely funny/ironic moments. 

At the same time, the best cinematic jokers were made better by being human. Nothing really sets 80s joker apart from any other crazy guy Jack Nicholson has done except the fact that we see him change. At first, he's a sane guy and a victim of a system where people that look down on him as a grunt, and while he tries to make his way up to the top, he's ultimately sent on a suicide mission because nobody in the crime business really cares or appreciates his help. He realizes this all at once when he finds that even the best fixing up that the mafia offers still leaves him with discolored skin and a rictus grin. With outrage and brain damage, it finally gives him the balls and the anger to overthrow the guys above him and become more than a grunt. By going insane, he's liberated from the rules everyone else has, which makes him dangerous enough to rise to power, and scary and even weirdly justified as a conflicting world view to Batman's super moral, lawful view of things. 

Despite the performance of Dark Knight Joker being intense and multi-facetted, the character itself was pretty 2-dimensional and uninteresting in a world that was supposed to be gritty, fleshed out, and tied together, to the point where Ra's Al Gul even trained the fucking Batman as opposed to having been another villain rising out of nowhere. Being the embodiment of chaos is one thing, but in a world that's primarily chaos, there isn't much setting him apart from anyone else aside from being a creepy clown. He isn't comnected to the world in any way, and insread of adding depth, the mystery makes him feel flat. However, the implication that he was once a soldier makes him interesting. (Being able to shoot RPGs out of a moving vehicle, just so happening to have a spare army uniform, being significantly younger and beefier than most scrawny 40-year-old interpretations of the joker, and that kind of shit) Besides giving Joker another jumping off point besides "fell in a vat, now I'm insane" it also ties him into the world better. If it actually showed Joker being broken and interrogated by terrorists and getting his face cut up, I'd have liked Ledger Joker a lot better. Hell, that'd make Joker giving Batman pointers on how to beat the shit out of him in the interrogation room even more badass. Of course, taking time out to explain this wouldn't have fit with the pacing of the movie, and having actual flashbacks would be stupid and edgy like in Suicide Squad. All the same, confirmation or some other way to access his canonical backstory would have made Joker less of a blank slate and more intriguing to watch.

Anyway, yeah, it's a way dumber book than what the nerd jism and constant re-releases would have you think, but keep in mind this was part of the serialized stuff and not one of the bigger stories that get their own stories and series. When you're reading the average serial stuff it can honestly be kind of a mixed bag, and the writers really do tend to throw a lot of shit at the wall to see what sticks. It's exceptionally good for the little serial snippet that it is, but if you came in expecting The Watchmen, you'll be really, really disappointed.

And, eh, It Follows was okay. I guess it's good by the standards of new horror, but it just kind of fell flat with me. Good soundtrack, and good camerawork, and the teenagers doing believably stupid shit as opposed to just being in humanly dumb is a nice choice, but it just wasn't very entertaining for me, and imho creatures like "It" have been done in much more fun and interesting ways before. Nice movie, worth the price of admission, but I don't think it was really the best.

The only other Joker origin story I can think of is from a 3 part mini-series that sort of gets forgotten about called "It's Joker Time!"

Joker is narrating the story and it's about how they tried to lobotomize him by just subjecting him to TV constantly. 

The funny thing is it actually works for awhile and in his own words says "He became a complete turnip." but ultimately he manages to shake off the effects and get out of the straight jacket and mayhem ensues as he uses a legal loophole saying he can't remember anything he's done. 

Then he starts manipulating the media and there's a TV executive and talk show host (A Jerry Springer expy) that start having him on the show and one point he starts "remembering" his childhood.

As I remember (Been awhile since I read it), in that one, he's got a step-dad that's a gag salesman that plays pranks on him constantly and his mom doesn't do anything about it, so he ends up killing them both.

Huh, so I guess supervillainy is a possible future for that Daddyofive kid.

Well yeah, I get the multiple choice thing, as I said, but this is basically saying "Hey there viewer, one of the possible origins is a really shitty one!" OK. Thanks. I could've guessed that, but I didn't. The Jack Nicholson character definitely lost out from the background story, as it became "Yeah, the Joker's madness is entirely routed in getting his face fucked up. That was it. That's the difference between Mob lieutenant and "poison everyone to smile". I mean, I guess it was interesting to watch and there was the Jack Nicholson of it all, but it's one of the most boring Joker's by far. It's not a look into a broken soul, it's generic villain becomes over the top madness.

I feel you've missed the entire point of the Ledger Joker. He told the story of how he got his scars multiple times, but it was different, showing that he had a multiple choice background. Showing him get the scars? You've ruined one of the coolest recurring things that movie had. It sure as shit wouldn't make it better. There's no back story that can justify the level of madness that we watch the Joker for, and giving him the shitty background of "He's a soldier!" degrades the entire character. This is dumb-asses wanting an excuse for the Force and wrecking Star Wars all over again.

Not sure what unbelievably stupid shit you're referring to here in it Follows. Other than the guy who she has sex with, they act pretty intelligently, throwing things over it to identify it and then shooting it, actually planning this shit, all that. You're comparing it to new horror, but I've always found that to be a bullshit idea that horror has gone downhill. If you look back to most of the old horror films, they're shit. What comes to mind is the cream of crop because you don't remember all the shit, and even much of that is incredibly lacking. I can't think of many that compare. 

It wasn't about his face being fucked up, it was about his bosses not giving a shit about him. He was treated condescendingly as an important person, only to get dumped off in a shady backwoods doctor's office and have some sort of fucked-up-looking surgery because being unaccountable for what happened was more important to the mob than their supposed valuable employees' well-being. It gives an interesting look into his motivations and makes him both cathartic and different. You're oversimplifying it just because you don't like it.

There was no point to the Ledger Joker, that was the point. That doesn't make him interesting, that just makes him out of place in a world where everyone is a terrorist who has a point. It's not at all like the force, because the Force is a constant through out the whole canon. The Joker isn't like that, because just about any author makes their batman world very different. He can be explored and given roots because that sets him apart from every other interpretation (if it's even an interpretation in some cases) and that's interesting and entertaining to watch.

Electifying the pool just came off as kind of goofy, tbh. I don't know. I never said that horror's gone downhill, just that it was the best by the standards of New Horror. You have to judge that differently, because like you said, you have to take the shit as it comes rather than easily find the good movies in decades where time has washed the shit out of the way.

I'm sorry, is a mob henchmen not being cared about by the mob boss supposed to be surprising? After he fucked his mob boss's girl? I doubt you've seen the film if you think that's what happened, he was fucking the boss's mistress behind his back, so he sent him in there to get killed. I'm not oversimplifying it, you're failing to understand it.

Ledger Joker was based in chaos, a disgust with humanity trying to appear ordered and moral when he said we clearly weren't. That question of whether society was just an imitation was central to his character, which was what made him interesting. The mystery of what fucked him up so much was also central to his character as shown by his Scar origin story, something you'd prefer to have ruined to instead give a bland "He was a soldier!" back story or whatever else. He absolutely had a point, it just seems it was lost on you because there wasn't a back story to spell it out. Perhaps have someone yell "He was a soldier and got PTSD and now he's mad at everyone!" repeatedly at you while hitting you in the head before the film starts and you'll appreciate the character a bit more. 

Goofy? It seemed to be a fairly tactical choice. Seeing as that's the only example you give besides saying you don't know, I'll once again assume you're talking out of your ass. Whatever.

 

Alright, that seems to be something they skipped in the TV runs I've seen. Then it's not as cathartic, but I still don't really give a shit. To me, it makes him more interesting than if he had come out of nowhere. Barring the affair, that origin would've been awesome, and I still don't consider the The Mystery to be a universal law.

The fact that he'd have seen society being flipped and destroyed would stand as a testament to his experience, however, and having a backstory wouldn't ruin it in the least. Repeatedly lying about his history, even laughing in the face of it, would show how much it doesn't matter to him, how it only ever changes what people think of him, and adds only to his pessimistic nihilism that he can toss his history away. It would add a lot more depth and interest to him where the mystery wouldn't. Not explaining it away with PTSD or some Hollywood Crazy Person bullshit, but just with his disillusionment after going through a bunch of shit and deciding that everything is shit. It doesn't need to be spelled out, but it is less entertaining having a character who just is their purpose rather than choosing their purpose.

Okay, okay, let me attempt to argue about why I thought it wasn't tactical because, y'know, it couldn't possibly be subjective. I thought they were silly, and the notion of existential ennui didn't really come across to me, even though that was allegedly part of the atmosphere. I didn't empathize with any of the characters, and it didn't feel very dreamlike or disjointed the way analysts/critics kept telling me after I've watched it. Given the questionable status of reality and the way cameras were set up, I just felt disconnected, which further drew me away from the characters, which are pretty important for an existential atmosphere to work. So, I'm probably more likely to consider what they're doing desperate, not so well thought out, and similar to whatever goofy 80's horror teenagers would do compared to you, who were obviously more invested than I was from your subjective interpretation and were able to connect with what the characters were doing.

So you preferred "My mob boss doesn't care for me" and "Ah, my face got fucked up!" as reasons for the Joker's insanity rather than the mystery of Ledger? Even though the former is quite possibly the most faggy thing I've ever heard, and the latter, as you said has to be oversimplified it's so ridiculously boring? You're an idiot. It's not a universal law, the majority of characters work better with back story, but for someone like the Joker, there's a level of over-the-top of madness that is pretty much impossible to give a worthwhile origin to you. I don't know why I'm trying to explain it to you, as "My mob boss cares more for himself than me" is what you considered interesting and cathartic, and getting a fucked up face is still good enough for you, even though countless people have it happen to htem in real life and don't become the Joker.

He does repeatedly lie about his history, if you've even seen the fucking movie, which given how you probably haven't seen the Jack Nicholsen film as that would make no sense if a TV run omitted a massive part of the film that explains why the Joker was there, why he got revenge and what that chick was doing there. He tells the scar story repeatedly, a different tale each time, which does show how little it matters to him. He's definitely tossed away and is lying about his history, which is what you're asking for, but it's to such a degree that even we the viewer don't find out. Was the abusive father his origin story? Maybe. It doesn't matter, as you've said yourself, the Joker has tossed away that part of his life and is what he is now. You're asking for a character who's tossed away his history, and that's what you were given.

Well no, saying someone was doing stupid shit isn't really subjective if what they were doing was rational. You then proceeded not to explain why the electricity thing was silly, even though they might have actually killed it in the end, so hardly the worst plan. So really, that's not a point. You telling me you didn't get the atmosphere or care about hte characters is something I don't really care about, you just don't seem to have understood the movie, which given your understanding of the previous two Jokers, is hardly unsurprising. Either way, not sympathizing with them wouldn't make their plan any worse, which again, you don't explain why it's a bad plan. "This creature follows you, let's have it follow you into a trap to kill it when we know it bleeds and can be wounded" seems to be fairly solid logic, followed by "Throw shit on it to find out where it is, then shoot it" also seems like solid logic, and might've actually worked.

It's not about the cause of the madness. Madness is almost always over the top and defies explanation, that'd kind of how mental illness works. It's not a result, it's just something that happens. It can arise from trauma, sure, and in that case it doesn't really matter what the trauma is, because that's not what determines the intensity of it. It's about setting up motivations, and the origins of motivation and how they set themselves up for that motivstion are what makes a character interesting. Captain Ahab was over-the-top insane, and all he did was think about one thing for a long time. The origins and the motivation were what made him interesting.

Like I said, while it wouldn't have fit in the movie, the backstory being canonized would at least have made the Joker more interesting. When he at least has the backstory, it shows what he's defying and rebelling against better. It's one thing to deny what could be anything, but to get someone invested in a story and then have the character turn against and void it entirely would stand as a testament to the Joker's lack of belief in the past, or in any society and discipline.

I didn't find myself relating or empathizing with them, so I wasn't invested and generally wrote them off as the typical Teenagers Doing Desperate Things (tm) of the 1980s-90s setting they seemed to be going for. Plus, it seemed fairly obvious to me that they didn't stop the creature at all, and that physically harming an instance of the thing only puts it off. It seems fairly straightforward that the creature is put off by relationships but drawn/transmitted by sex without emotional attachment or responsibility. Since the color red seems to be symbolically associated with the notion that the creature's gonna show up or that it's lurking around somewhere. Physically fighting with it seemed irrational and missing the point, and any notion of death or corporeality to a creature that was demonstrably shown to be incorporeal or at least traditionally formless felt like it was toying with the kids or just temporarily put off. With the grandpa watering his plants in the last shot wearing a red coat and some dude in the distance shambling off behind them, it's pretty much shown that they've only put it off again by sleeping together out of fear of the monster rather than because they really wanted to have sex in a mutually beneficial way.

The cause absolutely matters. The degree of madness should be somewhat relevant to the cause. Someone who lost their hand in an accident shouldn't be going "Burn the world, eat the fetus from a pregnant chick" mad, while someone who gazes into Cthulhu's soul after his family is slaughtered shouldn't just hate untidiness. Captain Ahab wasn't over-the-top insane at all, his determination leaked to obsession. Insane sure, but not over the top insane. If he began skinning his crew and wearing their hides, that'd be over-the-top. It's fairly clear the origins didn't make him interesting as you didn't understand those, neither did the motivation. Captain Ahab was obsessed with catching the whale that eluded him his whole life: that makes sense given his journey and struggle. To say that the origins don't matter is idiotic, because getting your face fucked up, which even you thought was oversimplified insultingly by me, does not turn a normal criminal to the Joker.

What you said would be cool was laughing about and repeatedly not caring about his history, which is what you see with Ledger Joker. Adding in "No, he was seriously this" not only kills the chaotic nature of his background to replace with some unsatisfying origin, but means exactly what? We know the Joker's past is void and he disregards it, what would adding the actual origin do at all, other than kill his mysterious origins to have it replaced by something that doesn't justify the level of insanity. Fuck it, you didn't even seem to get that his shtick was fuck society and structure until I pointed it out to you, before you said you'd have liked him to disregard and lie about his origins, which you already got, now it just seems you're arguing for the sake of it even thought you clearly think Nicholsen's Joker suffered from the origins given the fact that when I told you what they were, you assumed I must have been oversimplifying them.

OK, then you're an idiot. I didn't care about the characters of 13 Reasons Why, that didn't mean they were doing stupid things all the time. The fact that you don't relate to characters doesn't make their actions stupid. You say it's obvious that they didn't stop the creature, but apparently even successfully pushing it off is a stupid thing to do. Plus, they might've stopped it, the movie doesn't tell them for sure. So as opposed to their stupid "Let's try stop it and... oh look, maybe we did it, don't know", yours is just "Fuck it." He was never shown to be incorpereal, in fact it's the opposite as he has to follow you at walking pace and walk through doors and such. Also, whenever the creature showed up, it was in clothes you'd sleep or have sex in, so it's quite likely that it was just a person walking behind them. Plus, they rationally just went to a prostitute, (or at least it was implied), so that makes it less likely that that would be it. Fuck it, even if it was and none of it worked, trying still seemed better than nothing. Plus, I've no idea what you're talking about with sex being dependent on whether you're emotionally attached, as that was never shown to matter. It seems, like Ledger Joker and "Here's Joker!" you're once again pulling shit out of your ass.

It never eluded him his whole life, it eluded him later in life. He only chased Moby after it took his leg, he got sick, and he had a lot of time in his room and on his ship to philosophise and apply concepts to something that he was blatantly over thinking and obsessed with. And I still think you're oversimplifying it. The cause doesn't have to match the degree of insanity in the least. Hundreds of factors tie into how joker could have gone insane. The chemicals could have given him brain damage and/or hallucinations, he probably had some sort of personality disorder going into it already, since psychopathy doesn't just rise out of nothing, hell, he might just have been off his regular meds for a really long time and never suffered trauma in the first place. There are newspaper articles in the archives of any Wisconsin Library about farmers going postal and shooting their whole families for shit less supposedly crazy-inducing than burning your hand or having your face fucked up.

His background being chaotic isn't important or necessary to me. Like I said, it doesn't add anything for me. What I like is that it provides the Joker with something to turn around and disregard, showing that anarchy the way Joker describes it can exist, and that he was fully aware of the pretentions he hates having once been an enthusiastic part of them. He could have been chaotic and it could be non-canon despite the subtle implications left in the movie, but it's not the same. Who's to say he hasn't been insane all his life and was merely theorizing that altruism and rationality don't exist? And of course I knew what his shtick was, I don't know what you're talking about with me not getting it? Just because you explicitly spelled it out first doesn't mean I didn't have prior knowledge of it, you're just bringing up something that's been assumed common knowledge on the Joker. I know he was lying and disregarding his origins, my point is and was that actually having origins to disregard would have made him more interesting.

I'll give you the point that it's not incorporeal, then, but not that they've stopped it. I just got the notion that the creature was spread through emotionally irresponsible sex because it was transmuted only in consensual but emotionally void ways. One night stands and prostitution, most notably. But it seems like it should be different when she would have supposedly passed the curse on to the other kid, who actually has compassion for her. However, it's less emotional for her and more about postponing the curse, so while they're half on the right track, hence the fact that one instance is possibly dead, it hasn't bothered them for a while, and the red signifying his presence is much darker, their relationship is still halfway based on fear and self preservation than on emotional attachment, so the guy's still wearing red, and if they aren't being followed by the creature, it's at least the same guy who was staring at them through the comics pages, who's either another creature, or somebody that the creature regularly spies with or something, since there's not really much of a way that he would know the stalker kid has any connection to the girl or how to get on the roof the same way the kid could if he only pays attention to the cursed targets the way he does with his victims.

Well yeah, obviously kid Ahab wasn't fucking around with Moby. "His whole life" was an exaggeration for effect. I feel you're just being pretentious now and trying to point out things I've got wrong after I showed how much of a twat you were with "Here's Joker!". But still, his level of insanity was absolutely relative. It was "Obsession with this thing I can never kill" after continuously failing to kill it. That makes sense. If he had started skinning people, we'd go "Fuck me, what's gone on there?" We never saw "Here's Joker!" take Meds or talk about taking meds or anything like that, we were shown a perfectly normal guy who went insane just after the chemicals. It's sure a bit ridiculous to say that coincided with these mysterious meds he was taking stopping working. Plus, hallucinations and brain damage don't really help, as there's never any indication there's any more damage than superficial, and while there's endless articles about people going through psychosis, that's not what the Joker had. He didn't just go bonkers, he began to mastermind and plot insane ideas that still regarded a great deal of understanding of the world.

So the background doesn't add anything to you, and it takes away from the mystery of what drove him mad, but you're still arguing for it because...? We already know he must've had a childhood once, so we already know he's turned around and disregarded it. By showing it, all that would do is give him an unsatisfying origin story and kill how cool his lying would be. The fact that he repeatedly tells different stories and lies about it, and the fact that it shows how untrustworthy and cut off from reality he is to the degree that even the viewer doesn't even know the truth. Having him always be chaotic is just as mad, as you still kill both the mystery and the uncertainty of his character, you just replace it with "Nothing happened, he just IS that mad", which is as unsatisfying as any explanation. You really didn't seem to get his shtick as you just said there's no point to him and that is the point, where in fact there quite clearly was a basis and motivations for his every action, which were pretty much the same as they were in the Killing Joke without a need to spell out for the audience that he once was human. You've said what would be interesting is him disregarding his origins, which is given to such a degree that even we the viewer don't get to find them out. Adding origins just takes away from the thing you just asked for, as his origins are no longer so disregarded that we don't even need to see them as they'd be irrelevant. The Joker having abandoned and turned on his past is already implied and he's a much more interesting character because of that, what you're asking is just to have it spelled out for you because you want to learn about things you specifiy shouldn't matter to him or add anything, because you need a specific example to have been disregarded. Fuck it, if you do, you could just assume one of the scar stories he tells is it.

And again, it's left uncertain that they stopped it. They might've. They don't know. It was never stated that it's done through emotionally irresponsible sex, and nothing like that was ever even hinted, as nothing seems to change when she does it with the guy she likes and the movie never says anything even close to that helped, instead showing that if the creature wasn't dead, he'd have it then even though he did do it, so he went to the prostitutes after. So yeah, it seems you've just pulled it out of your ass, as nothing like that is ever suggested. There's especially nothing to suggest the thing following them was another creature: they didn't know what it was. They didn't know if it was dead, if that was the creature, or if that was just some random person. I'm half wondering if you've watched another movie where you're coming up with ideas like "It was the lack of commitment in sex" and "There was another creature that stalked targets", and once again just didn't get the movie like the previous two.

"His whole life" is a pretty fucking big exagerration when he's just been after it for years afer something that happened to him pretty late in his life. I feel like you're just being a twat now assuming anyone's even reading this sperg contest.  You're pretty fixated on these meds. I never said they absolutely were a thing, I just listed them as one of a bunch of examples why things wouldn't have to be relative to the trauma. Though getting your skin bleached and suddenly basing your persona around being a murderous clown certainly would imply psychosis around the injury, he was probably a violent sociopath to begun with seeing as he was robbing a factory with tommy guns and shit. It doesn't take a great deal of sanity to think of things logically anyway, it just takes a mostly accurate cognizance of the world. The guy in the Telltale Heart had a great plan for the time, but he was a Schizophrenic mess who probably would have got away with it if he didn't hear noises.

The background does add something, it provides something he's rebelling against and throwing away, rather than some nebulous nothingness that provides no context or basis for his motivations and no example of someone who has dropped all pretentions in the eyes of the Joker. The Joker makes it not add anything through his actions and thoughts, which makes it add something to the Joker as a character and makes him more interesting. The joker's shtick is chaos, which is what I meant by no point being the point. Burning the money for the sake of it, offering Two Face the opportunity to shoot him in the head, and, y'know, being the joker, all show he thinks it's a bunch of bullshit. I'm not pulling this out of my ass, his point since The Killing Joke has always been about the notion that all humans are animals when push comes to shove, I never said that changed. We're just repeating ourselves at this point, god subjective arguments suck.

It pretty much seems to be passed on through sex, I don't know what you're talking about. Every time, whether it was done as a one night stand or a physical relationship or prostitution, it's done with deceptive intentions. No evidence is given for affection, and since she gave it to him in an attempt to stop the madness rather than out of a pleasant relationship, of course he would have ended up with it. And anyway, if the thing following them isn't the creature, the creature certainly should have other watchers associated with it unless it's omniscient, and the blie holdie guy fits the bill. It would be pretty fucking difficult for a singular walking-speed entity that only pays attention to the person it's after to know the little kid that stalks the girl, how to get up on the roof the same way he does, or what her father looks like for some fucking reason.

It's an exaggeration for effect, yeah. If a forty year old said "I've been a builder my whole life", you wouldn't bitch that he certainly wasn't a builder until at least 15. If you're going to be pretentious, "a considerable amount of time", then. The point is, he hunted the whale for a fair bit of time and is obsessed with it. Ah, misunderstood your point on meds not being relative to trauma. No, pre-existing conditions aren't relative to trauma because they're not the cause. But "Here's Joker!" was never mentioned to have any pre-existing mental conditions, he seemed to be a relatively normal criminal in most degrees. Sure, he was no doubt violent and sociopathic, but it's a big step from "I want power in the mob community" to "I want to kill everyone by forcing them to smile with poison gas! Haha!", which yes, is a pretty huge step in sanity. The guy in the Telltale Heart had hallucinations, and that was the main thing about his mental issues. He didn't hear the dead fucker's heart beating and think "I need to eat all the hearts in the world!". He was still focused on what he wanted. Hallucinations wouldn't turn a normal guy's motives from normal to "Let's kill people, topple society and do it with a smile!" 

And again, you know Ledger Joker has a background he's rebelling against. We don't need something physically showed to us to know he's thrown away his past life, as at the very least we know he's thrown away his human morals and the societal structure that everyone's grown up with. His background is irrelevant to him now as you yourself said it should be. Why waste time with something that's irrelevant? He is what he is now, utterly disconnected from his past humanity. Showing said past humanity is not only irrelevant, but takes away from this image. It adds nothing to the Joker's character, as it, as you said, doesn't matter to his character. What he was means nothing to what he is now. The Joker's shtick sure isn't just chaos, there's far more to it than that. He wants to make it clear that these grand ideas of justice and society don't matter in the end, and when it comes to it we're still happy to kill each other to save our own necks, to throw away order and return to the animals he knows we are. That's not just "Chaos". He burns the money because it's useless, it's only value being based in the society he detests. He let's Two Face offer to shoot him not because he doesn't care, but because Two Face has done what the Joker wanted, tossing away morals or structure and just admitting that society's dead and it's all just down to chance. You, at the very least, pulled your ideas about "Here's Joker!" out of your ass seeing as you misunderstood his origins until I explained that to you, and Ledger Joker you also didn't seem to get.

Yes, passed on through sex, without a doubt. Emotions never come into it. The relationship between Jay and Paul wasn't done through deception, yet that's never shown as changing it. The reason most of the sex is deceptive is because yes, you're trying to get rid of the curse. There's nothing even hinting that emotional, loving sex would've done anything. There's nothing to hint that the creature has watchers, it seems to just have a supernatural knowledge of where its target is. There were no watchers at that abandoned place where Jay first encountered it, yet it showed up, so clearly it just knows where they are rather than having some bizarre system of watchers. It's supernatural, not using watchers. Fuck it, how would watchers even know what what her father looks like? He's not around, and I presume he's dead. Either way, we've moved off the basic point, which is that the characters were stupid, which given that the actions you found stupid was "Trying to kill the creature" and perhaps even succeeding in that, is ridiculous.

Wait! This is a Batman comic I actually read! Everybody kept talking about how incredible it apparently was and I finally set my viewing orbs on it, I didn't really get what they were talking about. I assumed that I was just out of my element and didn't know any better. I guess if the tiny snake speaks, then it must be true!

(That sounds like a euphemism, but it's not.)

It was like...All these things happened and they had to come up with reasons for it? "Toxic waste dumps will RUIN you kids, keep your distance!" Why was it necessary to have his wife and child die when he was just gonna go crazy and forget it anyways? And if HE forgot, why would WE feel bad for him? It's not like it's hurting him anyways! Unless he didn't forget it and it's me who forgot! I honestly cannot remember!

I think the only part that stuck with me was when Batman and him laugh in the rain because Everything Is Falling Apart and We Need A Conclusion. I was like "Aaaaw, how niiice" and then I realized that considering all the hell that had just taken place, Batman must have a twisted sense of humor.

I dunno. I watched the Lego Batman movie and my heart wa thouroghly warmed. I actually really, really like the Lego movies. Speaks volumes about my mental maturity.

Batman: The Animated Series is the only Batman the world ever needed.

You're forgetting Nolan's movies, and drunk Russian batman in Superman Red Son.

E: Also Batman Gotham Knight's work through the pain segment, and I haven't seen Lego Batman, but he was alright in the Lego movie

I mean, I imagine Batman would have a pretty dark, far-fetched sense of humor. Somebody who copes with trauma and loss by going out into the streets and arresting people even crazier than he is has to have some sense of irony to keep from going full bonkers.

Oh, in case anyone is wondering, the movie version of The Killing Joke alters the story slightly by adding a romantic relationship between Batman and Batgirl. (Same events happen)

As you might imagine this alteration of the original story caused fans to howl with nerd rage and feminists bitched about it sexualizing Batgirl and making the whole relationship "creepy." Which is a stupid complaint since they're both consenting adults and it's no less creepy than having Robin running about with him, which is arguably worse. And she fucked him in the Animated Series anyway.

To be fair this addition doesn't really add anything to the story and it's completely unnecessary. It was just sort of a way to expand on Batgirl's character since people bitched that in the original comic she was a "woman in a refrigerator."

Of course instead of "fixing the problem" (Which there wasn't to begin with) they just fucked it up even worse and made more people angry.

Saw the movie, it annoyed me. 1. Batgirl's character doesn't even die, so it's not like she'll have no character development. 2. It's completely irrelevant and out of tone. It goes from "Does he like me? Ah, woman troubles with my gay best friend" to "Aren't we all just insane? All it takes is one bad day".

Eh, I liked it. Movie was pretty good as well.

For other comics, though, No Man's Land and Death in the Family were pretty good.

You'd like The Doom That Came To Gotham.

Oh, that reminds me, while not a comic, the Suicide Squad animated movie was really, really good in comparison to the other one, and you guys should watch that. Anyhow, will do, probably. It's also quite likely I'll get distracted and forget this exchange ever took place.

I liked the comic, but I don't understand why everyone hypes it up as being one of the greatest comics ever. Movie would've been better if they didn't have the half hour prologue that adds nothing to the plot.

TBH, the definitive Batman stories for me will always be The Dark Knight Returns and Batman: Year One.

EDIT: Oh, and I loved Gotham By Gaslight as well.