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Hey I recently had a conversation with someone that is transgender, In this case it was a man who believes he is actually a female despite his biological sex. When I asked him why he felt like that for the most part he could only provide superficial reasons such as "I've always played with dolls" or "I've always been really good with make up" or " I've never been comfortable with my body". I'm asking if you guys think it is a mental illness because a mental illness is defined as something that affects someone's thinking, feelings or mood. If you think it is a mental illness should transgender individuals be able to undergo surgery to change their sex?

While I will not became involved in a debate, you do have an incorrect definition of mental illness. Under your parameters, being hungry is a mental illness, for it would affect my thinking (since I would be thinking about eating), my feelings (since I'm not that happy when I'm hungry), and my mood (which is closely tied to feelings anyway). A much better definition for "mental illness" comes from the Oxford Dictionary. It states, "A condition which causes serious disorder in a person's behaviour or thinking."

Also, basing your logic on a single individual is not a wise choice for creating a viewpoint. I suggest you conduct more research using multiple scientific sources (though I doubt you will heed my advice).

Im not basing any logic on anyone at all. Thats why i took to the internet to get more informed opinions and perspectives. I was just laying out the reason why the question is being posed. N.A.M.I. the national alliance on mental illness defined a mental illness as such. That is why I put that there, I like the oxford definition better because you brought up a good point hunger would technically fall under that definition but that could be said of both right? People have gotten hungry enough to turn to cannibalism which I would personally define as a serious disorder in a person's behavior or thinking.

 If this said person feels that they should be really female, is that something wrong with their brain/thinking or is it that they have a female mind in a male body? If this person feels out of place, their's nothing wrong with them. It's not an illness, their mind is probably fine.

That's simply cause and effect.

Yes, because posting on a writing site full of 14 year olds is always the first and most reliable way to get informed opinions about things.

To be fair, I'm genuinely curious to hear people's beliefs on the topic, seeing as I'm still not a hundred percent sure on the topic.

So 14 year olds can't contribute to the conversation or give a fresh take on things? What about 14 year olds struggling with gender dysphoria or 14 year olds with family that has struggled with gender dysphoria. I think that was an extremely close minded thing to say. Hell what if im 14? :D

If a mental illness is something that affects someone's thinking, feelings or mood...would sexuality be considered a mental illness?

EXACTLY! M888!

1970's feminist used to say that gayness doesn't exist cos' sexual norms is just a lie that society tells us so we can fit into white male guy's pyramid scheme.

Huh.

Anyways, I was just pointing out "something that affects someone's thinking, feelings or mood" is too broad a definition. A lot of things could fall into the category of affecting thinking, feelings, or moods. 

I can't really provide much more about this, other than that I know a few transgender people(and genderfluid) and I don't feel like being transgender should be grouped into mental illness'.

If Gender Dysphoria is classified as a mental illness, then it's a mental illness.

It isn't arbitrary that they still decide to classify it as a mental illness today, it's classifed as that for a reason unbound from personal opinion.

Ok so lets consider this. Let's say we erased all knowledge of the female population and Left males in a society that consisted of only males. Would there still be people saying who I am as a man is not right, is not comfortable to me? And if so, wouldn't those people saying that be considered a little off, since that would be the only state of being known?

It's not actually classified as a metal ilness, it's a mental disorder which has completely different conotations in the medical world. 

10 points to anyone who asks this question on CoG.

10 more points for each post you manage to make in the thread without getting banned.

http://forum.choiceofgames.com/t/do-you-think-dysphoria-such-as-gender-dysphoria-is-a-mental-illness/21250

Ask and you shall receive.

You mad bastard.

Lol.

If this survives ten minutes, I'll eat my hat.

Edit: Although, I'll be ultra-civil, see if I can get it to survive.

Ha

Im sorry to whoever I offend next but.....claiming to be trans racial is to me ridiculous. How can you say that we are all the same on the inside and then in the same breath claim you have always felt like you are black or white or asian or whatever. That's taking superficiality to the next level.

Oh fuck dude, you are about to get CYS' massive transracial community on your ass. Prepare for this thread to be nuked.

Lmao hopefully that isnt the case XD I really was looking for unique opinions and perspectives :D

I agree. Distinct appearance, unlike personality traits, cannot be altered or said to be something otherwise. No matter how many times that you call that pear a banana, it will still remain, by definition, a pear. (Was originally going to use apples as a comparison, but I realized some people might take it the wrong way. Phew! Dodged a bullet on that one.)

I give that thread exactly fifteen seconds past the moment a mod notices it.

This one popped up in related threads and was mildly amusing to me, seeing how it seems to claim that the 'genre' of CYOAs will die if people lose interest in CoG.

Lol.

Oh no, CoG is dying! There will be no more CYOAs ever again!

 

Do you choose to 

a) Run around and scream like the world is ending.

b) Cling to your dying home.

c) Just join CYS.

https://forum.choiceofgames.com/t/should-otherkin-have-human-rights/21256

Looks like that one was flat out deleted. I didn't even see what you wrote, assuming you're the one who created it.

Deleted before I even got a chance to see it. :(

This is why CoGites are among the lowest forms of internet life and only deserving of mockery. Even if it were an obvious troll thread you'd think the mods would have enough of a sense of humor to leave it be a little while and let the locals savage you a bit, but they're all such bitter dried up husks there.

They're hardly worth poking at what with the reflexive slapdown of the only interesting threads they ever get. It's like, ffs people if you're going to be shrill, unlikeable cunts, at least do it in a way that's entertaining. 

Proper trolling attempts meanwhile would require more time and effort than they're worth. Unless...idk, maybe Steve could make a 'boycott CoG for censorship' thread here and link to it from there, that might get some panties twisted with minimal effort.

Made it 59 minutes. I'm impressed.

xD I can spam the forum with filler if that gives me points.

>~< But I don't really feel like doing something like that. Spamming just isn't my style.

Trannies are the best. All the joy of hitting a woman with none of the guilt.

Oh savage XD

"From my view of this question I should say that saying a transgender has a mental illness is rather offensive. It is a choice, not an illness."

Wait a minute. Being transgender is a choice?

Seems like that sort of thinking is generally considered hate speech in certain circles.

The person bitching that trans racialism is different to transgenderism is retarded, but I need to stay nice. How the fuck can you not consider fake tits to look like a chick like tan or whatever the fuck to look black? Genetics affects race as much as it does gender, you tool. 

Nice Steve needs to come out for this.

Seems like the thread over there was closed. What open-minded and progressive individuals :)

Fucking cunts. Shit like that, when people act ultra-offended, just makes me more transphobic.

Steveeee you're adorable! xD

Anyways, it's ridiculous that they deleted the thread there, but meh.

Hmm. Well, I grew up in a strict household that considered those kind of people "monsters and vermin." But I like to rebel from that kind of mindset that my parents tried to drill into me. I was hoping to see how the discussion would go, honestly. But I guess even bringing up the topic is considered rather offensive to the community over there.

Well, your posts seemed cordial enough, imo.

Trans people on the internet + their constant and much more vocal entourage of white knights frantically shouting down any perceived dissension probably do more damage to the public's opinion of trans people than anything else. Fear and anger at being exposed to anything that differs to what's endlessly regurgitated by the hive mind and responding with frantically glued on labels and censorship = you have already lost the argument, and you had no points or thoughts of your own that could withstand even the mildest scrutiny to begin with.

Ah. That sounds like feminism on the internet >~<

I think the silliest reason they locked a thread over there was when one of the authors was wondering how the romance option's physical features should be described and the owner of the site locked it because they claimed it was objectifying characters as purely sexual objects.

Well... it's nothing wrong for them to lock threads like Steve made or anything that could produce uncivil or screwed up discussions. But locking a thread when someone is asking how romance option's physical features should be described is too much.

So your standards for a thread that should be locked is anything that might receive an uncivil response?  

It's okay to discuss things like Steve made in CoG and stuff like that. But if I find out that threads like that turn out to be problematic and people can't keep the discussions civil enough, if I were a mod, I'd take them down.

People still can't keep things civilized? Restrict those kind of threads from popping out in the forums.

To address the actual OP, this whole thread feels a bit like trollbait, and it's already been pointed out that 'something that effects your thoughts, feelings or mood' doesn't really fit the definition of 'mental illness' and is so incredibly general and vague it kind of makes it hard to have a real discussion based on that from the start, but whatever, I'll bite.

Just addressing surgery specifically, I do sort of feel like any sort of crippling body issues that compel a person to get major surgery for purely aesthetic reasons could be considered unhealthy. But I mean someone born a man who decides they're miserable unless they can get a doctor to give them big titties is no more a victim of mental illness than a woman who feels the same way. Very few people are born with the body they want, but most of us are able to live with it.

The issue there may be more one of most people we all see whining on the internet about this (or any other issue) coming from a culture of self entitlement and self absorption than anything else though. Sorry, but like most things people in first world countries let themselves get all worked up over, making too huge a deal over the inner pain of being born with an otherwise perfectly healthy body you don't like the look of is monstrously selfish no matter what the situation. For instance I'm sure there's plenty of people out there who would happily trade their dicks or boobs in to an unhappy trans person in exchange for...idk, good eyesight or a pair of functioning legs? 

Mostly though, I just don't care? I definitely won't put up with anyone demanding I care about how they feel about how other people feel about how comfortable they feel in their bodies, but otherwise whether someone considers themselves a man or a woman and whether they're right or wrong, for whatever reason, is so utterly stupid and meaningless to dwell on, there's way too much other shit going on in the world that actually matters.

I'm actually glad this thread is happening now, the very fact that it exists means we're so much more tolerant and progressive and than the small-minded cunts on CoG, just by default.

Departing from the OP 'mental illness' question, there's some things I've always wondered about the whole gender identity issue in general. Like, what does it even mean for someone to just 'know' they were born as the wrong gender? I feel like, as a society we're pretty well past the point where anyone seriously things some things are purely masculine and some things are purely feminine, or that men dress and act one way and women another. Does it really just all come down to how someone feels about their physical body? Because other than relatively trivial shit like 'No I want to use the bathroom with that symbol only!!!' I'm not getting what makes the difference between a guy with traditionally 'girly' interests or a guy who likes to look pretty in a dress vs an actual trans person. 

What being male and female means is so different across cultures too, which is another part of what confuses me. Like, take a guy here who just knows he feels better wearing makeup and looking sexy in a skirt, but if he was born in another country would he like, be upset that no one understands his natural desire to cover his entire face and be treated as literal property?

Women make sandwiches. Men make manwiches. Everyone else is a Freaky Alien Genotype.

I'm really shit sick of this whole "Woman make sandwiches" bullshit. It's the twenty first century. Woman have the freedom to make a whole range of culinary delights for their husbands, from burgers to curries to spring rolls to stews.

women can make a sandwhich from any room in the house, not just the kitchen. it's these progressive thoughts that will push the world forward.

Women can make a sandwich while standing up to pee.

Just, uh..I wouldn't recommend eating that sandwich. But we can do it. No man can stop us.

I'm actually glad this thread is happening now, the very fact that it exists means we're so much more tolerant and progressive and than the small-minded cunts on CoG, just by default.

Oookay, so someone took issue with this. (I don't know who because they registered and PMed me under a secret identity and have claimed to be unwilling to post.)

They said LOL and that I must be trolling because 'CYS isn't tolerant at all'. And yet, here the admins are, tolerating a thread on a touchy subject in which people post dissenting views.  It's almost like, no one has any idea what that word means anymore, even on a writing site!

Here, let a dictionary help.

a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward opinions, beliefs, and practices that differ from one's own.

interest in and concern for ideas, opinions, practices, etc., foreign to one's own; a liberal, undogmatic viewpoint.

ie: NOT flipping out and deleting a thread because someone asks a question that may get answers the designated hive mind disagrees with, or treating people with different views as automatically wrong and evil. Also, turns out it's impossible to be tolerant at all in a circlejerk where everyone already has the same opinion to begin with, fancy that. So yes, I stand by my assertion that CYS is more tolerant than most communities, and waaaaaay more tolerant than CoG. Knowing how to have a disagreement or read words you don't approve of without having a meltdown, frantically slamming a delete button or running away is an important life skill, and perhaps the one single thing I approve of when it comes to all of you terrible, shitty children here in our little CYS family and the main reason I always say we have great mods here.

The rest of the message was responding my posts, very long but perfectly polite and so I have no idea why they were afraid to post it or what they thought you guys might do to them. But it sounds like they were used to the way CoG does things, and that community breeds an atmosphere of fear and walking on eggshells I guess?

Anyway, it was all very weird and mysterious, but better than an anonymous message delivered through my bedroom window via brick for sure. I encourage you all to make alts to reply to any future posts of mine. (with the caveat that End will just delete them, and I won't PM you back because talking to masked strangers is one of those things Mom always warned me about)

Dictionaries went out of style. It's easier to just be ignorant and make shit up.

That's one of the things I don't understand. They try and 'break down gender norms' or some shit, but get defensive over their choices to wear 'feminine' or 'masculine' clothes and seem pretty focused on being able to pass as the gender they aspire to be. If clothes don't have gender, and makeup doesn't have gender, and everyone should be able to do whatever they want, whats the big deal about being born in the wrong body? Shouldn't it not matter? Because everyone can do whatever they want anyway?

Definitely this^
I'm very comfortable with people changing themselves to try attain the best 'them', with things like plastic surgery, or transgender identity, but what insanebutvain said, the breaking down of traditional gender roles in recent years should enable someone to identify as what ever they want, without conforming to "Oh, I'm a transgender girl" or "I'm a transgender guy". Identity is whatever you want it to be right? So why conform to a aging gender role?

hey...you're not Morgan_R...

No, it's classified as a mental disorder which is different than a mental illness.

"When I asked him why he felt like that for the most part he could only provide superficial reasons such as "I've always played with dolls" or "I've always been really good with make up" or " I've never been comfortable with my body" "

Don't strawman, doesn't really help your argument.

As for your second question: I personally give zero fucks about what other people want to do with their body. If they want to go through a sex change, let them. Should doctors be forced to give them surgery? No, but there's no reason to stop transgender people from having sex changes.

At what point do you draw the line with what someone wants to do with their body? Should someone be able to cripple themselves if they want?

Why not? Natural selection.

#3edgy5me

No. Being suicidal and depressed is actually being mentally and the person should not be able to make their own choices. 

We have too many people on the planet anyway though.

Still so edgy.

But crippled people are a strain on the economy.

Well if people are cutting their arms off or some shit then they should just be forced to live life the same as everyone else and not get any special treatment. Or just be given the option to kill themselves.

How is this example different from drug addicts overdosing?

What if someone wants to have a drastic, dangerous procedure to change their appearance? 

Every doctor in America is bound by the Hippocratic oath, so the hypothetical person would have to undergo illegal surgery so that also shouldn't be legal.

Well, I'm asking if, in your personal opinion, how dangerous a procedure should someone be allowed to take? I mean, there's a lot of dangers involved in the sex change thing. If that's OK, are other things like melanin injections to change skin color OK by your books?

If the procedure is relatively safe, and the patient is willing to pay for it them self, then I'd let them do it. More money to doctors is always good.

afaik they don't automatically hand out drastic plastic surgery or whatever to just anyone who wants it, the doctor has a right to make a call if it's a matter of safety or concern for possible complications. Or mental health, I would hope. I'm not sure whether they do this with trans people or if it's one of those things where people are allowed to take major risks because saying no would be offensive.

But then again there are crazy people who want to be human cats or Barbie dolls and that gets a pass, so who knows...

Pretty sure sex changes are really safe if done correctly.

Depends on the patient. Pre existing conditions like diabetes or whatever else, or medications they might be taking can make even minor procedures a risk. Getting sliced up is getting sliced up, whether it's done by a professional or not, it puts a lot of stress on the body to heal it.

I saw something that said most doctors make people live as the opposite gender for at least a year before they will okay surgery. Once you pop off a dick... that's it. There's no redo button.

I didnt post those quotes to support any argument thats exactly what came out of his mouth, I dont really have a position on it, and y do you think it falls under a mental disorder? And should you be able to have a major surgery, that isnt necessary to survive of course, If you have a mental disorder? I mean dementia is a mental disorder and you wouldnt let someone with dementia drive a car let alone go get a sex change. (Im not equating gender dysphoria with dementia just an example)

Pro tip: Your posts and opinions will be taken more seriously here if you type using punctuation and traditional sentence structure.

I really couldn't care less about punctuation and traditional sentence structure :D Im way more interested in what someone has to say and what they need me to understand, so if my writing turns you or anybody else off then too bad, idc :D

*Cringe*

@EndMaster - it refuses to obey the purpose of the site. This is justification for purging, yes?

Usually, but we’ll wait awhile. Could prove amusing.

Honestly other than Steve taking up the CoG challenge and Mizal getting harassed by some intolerant fucktard, I haven’t paid much attention to this thread, mainly because Morgan and I did it way before it was hip and trendy.

Oh and before I forget…

Gender is not dictated by your genitals. This is fucking remedial. 9_9

Apparently it is. Anyone who claims to suffer from gender dysphoria is basically saying "Hey my genitals don't match my gender! Let's fix that!" So yeah apparently I'm missing something, which is why I asked the question :D

Hell if I know, I'm not the expert.

That was just the usual quote that was trotted out whenever this subject came up in threads. It would be weird to not have it in here somewhere, so I posted it.

I may have even gotten the quote slightly wrong, doesn't matter I guess, but anyway good luck in your pursuit of this knowledge!

Lmao at the lovely anecdotal evidence. Not that I don't provide it like an old Canadian man provides diarrhea to all the bathroom surfaces his first time in an Indian restaurant, but I do love to condescend against everyone else when they do it.

It's a mental disorder, since it's a brain thing that inhibits functioning in life/or the overall quality of life. Thing is, you can treat it with hormones and shit, and there is evidence that male/female-structured brains can be in different bodies. Thing is, people who are transgender generally have a shitty time up until the point where they've been changed/allowed to be the person they believe they always were. No one else loses anything by allowing them to have surgery and hormones, and, frankly, it really isn't anyone else's business. Where does anything that transsexuals do ever affect anyone else?

Personally, I think any gender outside of physical shit and sexuality outside of "I want my thing to have a friction with a variety of person-genital or I don't" do not exist, and are only concepts that can be learned. That isn't to say that someone can't be these genders, it's just that it isn't a gender so much as it's an extension of your personality based on what you are and aren't attracted to, what you associate with aspects of masculinity and femininity, etc. etc. So Androgynous and Queer are not biological genders as far as I know, or as studies have shown, but a certain sexual subculture based on shared experience and preferences. I don't think the fact that it's an externally conditioned thing makes it any less valid, but rather than being a vast spectrum of shit, and all of the extrabinary genders, no matter their name, pronoun, or description, only ever comes down to "I like this, I do this, and these are the parts that I have to work with", which applies to fucking everyone whether they're "Cis" or not, it's just a collection of personal and sexual traits, in which case, each individual person is their own gender, in which case shit is fucking ridiculous and gender doesn't mean anything. This is probably a mess of stream-of-consciousness gibberish, but I'm trying to practice for a Bizarro Horror Story Contest so bear the fuck with me, my thoughts might not be in good order.

This is probably a mess of stream-of-consciousness gibberish

Oh no, don't worry, it's more coherent than your usual. :)

Well, fuck. That means I need to try harder. Or I don't. I dunno.

I agree with a lot of what you said, My question is if i want to fuck a guy or wear a dress what the hell does that have to do with my sex? I'm still a man. If i want to play with dolls or wear makeup then im a man who wears makeup and plays with dolls :D But transgender people take it to a whole new level by saying "I should have been a woman" That just fucks up what sex is. How in the world would you even know what being a woman feels like? You can only want for what you "See" because you could never understand what a woman "feels" because you would have to have been a woman to experience that. If it even feels any different! (Aside from gender roles and all that of course)

Thing about the opposite-sex-structured brains probably being in different bodies is, if you're not hardwired for your body and hormones to feel right, odds are you're going to feel very, very wrong for most of your post-pubescent life if you don't get treatment, because that's not what your brain thinks should be happening, but it is what your X-chromosomes are making happen against your subconscious will, or something. I've never been born half-man before, I don't know what it's supposed to be like.

Whatever happened to the whole 'gender is a social construct' thing everyone used to push, anyway? Is that whole idea considered obsolete now or what?

(Serious question, I'm old and don't bother keeping up with this shit.)

I still think most of the shit associated with what gender is all social, but stuff like what parts you personally identify with, and the ones that you're interested in (Though surrounding bodies may vary) are definitely chemical-driven, because that's literally built in, I think. Didn't know that was any sort of movement. I'm sure a more-than-fair number of people think that, though, your circle of opinions read may have changed since you found it being a thing, though.

Holy shit, the Rocky Horror remake is fucking more horrible than I could have imagined.

They could have at least gotten people who can actually sing. Every song sounds off.

Aw... this hurts me.

Hell, it's not even good for this thread anymore because they made Rocky have an actual birth-vagina! DAMN FOX AND THEIR CONSERVATIVE BULLSHIT!

You mean Dr. Frank N Furter, (I dunno if the person playing the role was a pre or post op, but their singing was shit anyway) though yeah your point still stands. 

It was like watching a sanitized Glee version of the movie. Just terrible.