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Hello friends, 

Sorry for my lateness. I was unexpectedly busy yesterday. Here are the discussion questions for Book 2.  As always, answer some, none or all of my questions, and feel free to pose your own. 

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What implications might there be to Zeus’ sending a false dream to Agamemnon? 

Book 2 is full of agricultural imagery.  Homer even describes mastery over animals as a characteristic function of human beings (“the men who master horses”, line 1). How does Homer present man’s relationship with animals? 

Odysseus tells one of his men: “you must not be frightened like a coward or a peasant” (line 224). What might this tell us about the intended audience of the poem, and about Homeric notions of class more broadly? 

Aggamemnon says: “go eat your dinner and prepare for Ares” (line 462) to his men. Other translators render this line differently. Michael Heumann chose to render this line as “Now let each man go to his meal and then prepare for battle” (p. 52 of Heumann translation). What might be the significance of Emily Wilson’s choice to make reference to the deity Ares, as opposed to the general occurrence of battle? 

What's up with all these names? Why might Homer include a giant list of peoples in attendence of this mythic battle?

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In this book, we find the Catalogue of Ships, a lengthy interlude wherein Homer describes all of the warriors who have travelled to Troy to be a part of Agammemnon's army. It is followed by a similar Catalogue of Trojans. 

Bruce Heiden has argued that the Catalogue serves to elevate the common soldiery up to the levels of heroes. Individual troops are not named because it would be impossible to list that many within the confines of epic poetry, but the Catalogue distributes ordinary men and heroes in a surprisingly democratic fashion. The cohorts who have come to Greece seem to receive introductions as dramatic and showstopping as their godlike commanders, which represents a real departure in style from much of the epic. 

Heiden, Bruce. “Common People and Leaders in ‘Iliad’ Book 2: The Invocation of the Muses and the Catalogue of Ships.” Transactions of the American Philological Association (1974-) 138, no. 1 (2008): 127–54. http://www.jstor.org/stable/40212077. (If you want a .pdf, send me your email or Discord handle) 

1. Zeus sends a false dream to Agammnon because has to fulfill his promise to Thetis since she saved him during the revolt of Poseidon and the other gods.

I think an interesting implication of Zeus's choice to use dreams to manipulate the situation is that, for now, gods don't try and directly interfere. The gods play a background role, often manipulating events and pulling the strings behind the scenes. Zeus also doesn't want to risk the wrath of Hera, even though he is the king of the gods, he still prefers Hera to be happy so he sends a dream to Agamemnon. Interestingly enough, he chooses the form of Nestor, who as we've already discussed ad nauseam, is the Acheans' most trusted advisor. So, if Nestor gives the go ahead, then surely it must be ok to start the invasion, right?

This dream strategy also plays on Agammemnon's arrogance, as he sort of feels that he's favored by Zeus, so victory is therefore imminent. Another implication is how we see the Gods start taking clear sides, which escalates the conflict. Another implication is that no matter how tough you are, how smart the decisions you take are, ultimately, when the gods conspire against you, your fate isn't in your hands. I think Homer is trying to say something about the capriciousness of the divine, and how one day, you might feel that things are going your way, but then things suddenly change.

3. The significance of the Emily Wilson translation using the proper noun "Ares" itself instead of a more vague and general word "battle" is that it foreshadows Ares himself fighting one of the Achean heroes in battle, hand-to-hand. From what I can remember, Ares is the only god to fully fight an Achean, hand to hand, no holds barred fight. Also, by using a god's name, Emily Wilson is hinting at the fact that the battlefield is also a place for gods to take out their political rivalries, frustrations with each other, on the opposite side that their divine enemy chooses to support. So, the Trojans and the Acheans are both chess pieces for the gods to play around with. Maybe Emily Wilson's translation also makes the battle feel more brutal and terrifying, because "battle" is impartial, but when you personify it as "Ares", it seems to have actual personality traits that match Ares's.

4. Homer makes a giant list and catalogue of all the various people present to heighten the tension. This shows that it's not just 2 city states fighting, but rather, some of the greatest powers in their time warring. I guess by also listing out all the heroes, and telling us things about them, it makes the conflict seem more tense. Even though we know that the Acheans win the Trojan War because of pop culture diffusion, this roll call shows us that there are great men on both sides. In a way, the roll call serves the purpose of showing the reader that the war could go either way, because the Trojans don't lack might. Without divine intervention or interference, it's unclear to say which way the war could have went. Maybe this also shows how much little the humans in the Illiad control their destiny, because even with all that might, all that power, and all those heroes, Troy still couldn't save itself. I think I might be overreading into this, but in any case, I enjoyed the roll call because it was cool to see all the different names, even if it did get dry.

I *love* teaching Book 2 because right away you have to deal with the catalog, and people just aren't used to reading stuff like that now.  Same thing when I teach Arthurian literature and you get pages and pages of names and who smote whom in what looks like the driest possible fashion, list-like.  But to me, what's so important is that we remember the orality of the poem and the audience of the poem.  If you're from Pleuron, and you hear about Thoas's 40 ships,  you are on your feet like when the comedian says "anybody here from Brooklyn?  Let me hear you!" or whatever.  This is a story about you and your ancestors and where you are from, and it has been chronicled and remembered.

I would guess that the audience listens to this list of names and numbers as raptly as my grandfather listened to a list of sports teams and scores for ten minutes on the radio, which to my young ears was the most boring possible entertainment imaginable.

Thanks for sharing this - this was a helpful way to view that section! What a way for the speaker to connect with the audience.

It's also kind of fun that these names are listed as if relayed from the Muses themselves. "Now tell me, Muses, who have your houses high on Mount Olympus, for you are goddesses and you are here, and you know everything, and you see it all, while we can only listen to the stories - we have seen nothing and do not know. Who were the lords and leaders of the Greeks?"

And the little descriptions! I'm thinking of the bit where it says "from Phthia, Trechis, Alope, and Hellas, where women are most beautiful." I can imagine girls from that region winking at each other like "yes queen! You know it!"

Summary:

So Zeus is chilling on Mount Olympus feeling bored and so he thinks to himself, "I know! I'll fuck with the mortals! That always cheers me up!" So Zeus sends a dream to Agamemnon basically telling him, "Hey, you should totally attack Troy right now. Don't worry. All the Gods have got your back, so you're definitely going to win. Pinky swear!"

Then we get a very long and detailed description of the dream that Zeus decides he's going to send to Agamemnon. Then Agamemnon has the dream... And we get a very long and detailed description of the dream that Zeus sent to Agamemnon. Then Agamemnon summons his council and says, "Hey guys! You won't believe this dream I just had!" ... Then he gives a very long and detailed description of the dream that Zeus sent to him. So, back to back, we get three descriptions of the same dream that are pretty much word for word exactly the same. Homer likes his repetition.

Anyway, even though Agamemnon believes that the Gods are backing him and that he'll definitely win if he attacks Troy, he for some reason decides to tell his soldiers, "Changed my mind. Don't want to fight Troy anymore. Pack your bags, boys! We're going home!" ... But... He's not actually giving up. He just told his soldiers that they're giving up because... He wanted to test their courage or something? I cannot for the life of me figure out the logic behind his plan.

Anyway, because Agamemnon told his soldiers to pack up and go back to Greece, the soldiers start... Packing up to go back to Greece. Which, of course, he is very upset about! How dare these soldiers actually do what he told them to do? Do they have no loyalty at all?

So Odysseus steps in and says, "Hey guys! Come back! Just because Agamemnon literally ordered you to pack up and leave doesn't mean he actually wants you to pack up and leave! It's like when your girlfriend tells you she doesn't want anything for her birthday. It's a trap! Do not listen to a word she says! Get that bitch presents and a cake and throw her a fucking surprise party with tacky hats and balloons and shit!"

So, this guy Thersites says. "I kind of just want to go home... I mean... You do realize that we foot soldiers are being slaughtered by the thousands clearing a path for you, while you "heroes" just rush in at the last minute to swing your swords around and call dibs on all the food, bitches and treasure?" ... So, of course, Odysseus beats the shit out of him and everybody laughs.

Agamemnon sacrifices an ox to Zeus. Zeus accepts the sacrifice, but crosses his fingers behind his back as he accepts it. Syke!

And then Homer just kind of... Lists names for half an hour. Literally, half an hour... Of names... Lots and lots of names.

Analysis:

Homer REALLY likes names.

Sorry for the late reply! I'm going to wait to read responses till after I've posted. 

 - I enjoyed the bit where Thersites goes off on Agamemnon and Odysseus hits him with a stick for it till he cries. 10/10 Entertainment and just a lil ominous? I noted that their main complaint with this guy is that he seems to open his mouth exclusively to cause trouble, and apparently he is very ugly to boot lol. In this bit, he seems to think the fight they're going towards is more about Agamemnon than anything else. I wouldn't say Thersites is entirely right, but I like his boldness in bringing up the personal conflict between Agamemnon and Achilles about their trophies and how it relates to the situation at hand. Then Odysseus silences "that rude windbag" via percussion and everybody cheers :)

-Zeus sending Agamemnon the false dream makes me think of the United States' Manifest Destiny & expansion into the Northern American continent(my memory of this bit in history is a little foggy, so forgive me/correct me if I fumble it up. Also, I'm ragging on my own country here). From what I remember, the United States considered their expansion divinely inspired,and didn't give much regard to how it impacted the indigenous peoples already living there ... they were just in the way, fallout, a problem to be swept aside. So millions of people were devastated (lost homes, lives, way of life, dehumanized, etc) while U.S. folks were just chasing the dream.

Now, Agamemnon has woken up and he seems to have this God-given commission to go fight. Since Zeus has done this as a solid to Thetis, it's hard to know all the impact this fight will have, other than just the intended one. As Agamemnon chases his dream, so to speak, I'm very interested to see what else may happen as a result.

 - Humans and animals seem to have a pretty clear business relationship in this work ... I haven't much observed companionship between men and animals outside of that. 

 - I did notice that leaders and common soldiers were delivered the same message very differently. The class distinctions are clear ... Thersites is also "put in his place" when he decides to criticize his betters. Odysseus's rebuke wasn't just about the nature of the rude comments, but also about how Thersites is too lowly to speak of his leaders at all. In fact, those of lower strata are kinda just background characters ... Breises is led away but given no dialogue, common soldiers are yelled at and struck but their stories aren't really explored. Makes me think the intended audience is likely more for upper-class, wealthy people, ruling class, or warriors ... people who might see themselves in Achilles' or Agamemnon's shoes and identify with conflicts over honor, property, reputation, and legacy (but also people who may view the working class as less important to the story).

 - I really enjoyed how Wilson used the reference to Ares, rather than just war. It makes it so much more personal! One sees Ares' name and can visualize Ares anticipating the men as they anticipate him. One can visualize the men tightening saddles and sharpening weapons with the influence of the god - as though red embers of his being sweep amongst them while they prepare! It enmeshes the greek gods with the material world so seamlessly, and reminds the reader how connected the pantheon is to each part of life. From the river to dawn rising to war brewing to the wisdom of careful thought ... divine persons have their hands in all of it. 

 - I liked hearing about Thamyris bragging so hard that the Muses just came down and destroyed him. "They mutilated him and robbed him of godlike song and forced him to forget the lyre." Reminds me of the story of Arachne. One does not simply challenge the gods. 

I have a question: is the the theme of the Iliad anti war? I haven't read it so maybe that's a dumb take, but it sounds like it spends a lot of time setting up these glorious heroes only for everything they do to end in negative things and pointless destruction.

I don't think that's a dumb take at all. That's actually a really insightful and intelligent question to ask. I never even considered it that way, so that is a really interesting perspective. I'd love to hear Gower's or Malk's thoughts on this.

We'll be in a better position to talk about this when we're done, of course, and it's sort of a question you can hold in the back of your mind as you read every book--but I think even more interesting is to break that question up into smaller pieces:  what's the epic's attitude towards the concept of individual heroism versus the overall might of an army; material reward versus acknowledgment of one's valor; glory eternal in death versus humble but forgotten life, and so forth. 

The simple concept "War" is only scratching the surface of the values this epic pushes on as hard as it can to see how much it can bear.

Because Homer is astonishingly subtle, this epic is never going to give you an answer.  Like Beowulf, the answer is both yes and no--being "anti-war" makes no sense in this world.   But at the same time, the utter waste of it all hovers around the edges.  Glory and treasure makes meaning, but Beowulf's treasure ends up buried uselessly in the ground.  Beowulf is great, but Homer is the master.  And the different characters are going to come to different realizations, conclusions, epiphanies, turns, rejections and so forth throughout this book (and in the Odyssey too). 

Homer is too cagey to be pinned down like this, and the Iliad doesn't have a specific un-subtle point of view that you can just point to and feel like you've captured it.  You have to ride that wave throughout, and it's incredibly powerful, and if you are reading carefully, you will feel how heavy he has weighed the scale in both pans.

A1: The Greek will win, eventually, but the conflict will drag on for a long time. The gods interfere constantly during the Trojan War, and Zeus is inclined to please his daughter who asked for Achilles' pride to be avenged. Having proud Agamemnon be the major driving force for gathering up the Greeks only for him to be humiliated when he leads them to a future slaughter will drag his name and his family through proverbial mud. Many Greeks will die, but Agamemnon will live, die and languish in the Underworld forever connected to doomed hubris. The so-called "Best of the Greeks" will always be remembered as the fool who led his countrymen and allies to one of the most grueling wars of all time.

As for what lying implies, it means that the pantheon has agendas. Only the virtuous and protected are truly safe from the will of the gods. As many myths and legends already show, cross any of the gods for any reason and you're usually screwed. Apollo may have forgiven the Greeks for the outrage against his loyal priest, but so long as Agamemnon pursues vainglory, he will continue to fall into the traps of fate laid out by the gods who will punish him for his hubris.

A2: Mastery of nature is a common theme of these stories. Men under the gods must show dominance over the land in order to give sacrifices to the gods or to show skill and virtue over a world that would destroy them if given the chance. Nature can be brutal. Of course, there are characters who have companionship with animals (Odysseus has a dog), but it seems more common that animals are regarded as symbols of status. Agamemnon is a horse-lord, showing that he has wealth, status and power (horses for chariots, chariots for warfare, warfare for spoils, and so on).

A3: Those seeking stories for escapism certainly don't want to live their lives as peasants or beggars. Quite naturally, the virtuous and strong have their character reflected in wealth and power right? If you can rise above others and distinguish yourself with glory, do it. What else have you got to live for than to give yourself over to fate and hope that the gods will bless your efforts?

A4: Each god is defined by his domain, and Ares is certainly defined by battle. Evoking the name of Ares brings up a more romantic image of preparing to participate in bloody conflict and receive eternal glory through it. "Prepare for battle" isn't a bad line, but "prepare for Ares" paints a more descriptive image through narrative implication.

A5: Tedious though it is for us to read it, giving all these names gives a great impression of scale. This isn't just a war. This is THE WAR. Everyone is getting involved, and listing out all the different locations gives Homer a chance to call out regions from all over the world that he knew. Listeners could get excited seeing references to their homes. "Hey, he's talking about our ancestors! He mentioned some heroes of the past that we're connected to!" Both sides of the conflict are detailed and possibly could have inspired listeners to take sides during the narrative and root for their favorite characters or groups.