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Ace's Artisanal Alcove

4 months ago
The purpose of this thread is similar to the Monday Writing Questionnaire thread I started a while ago, a place for people to share thoughts on the technical side of craft. Mainly I'm starting it because I have some questions I'd be interested in people's thoughts on. The first one is this, action tags. What do you think about them? So I've personally heard the advice to not overuse dialogue tags outside of said, asked, ect. Which I think is decent advice, but as a result I find myself using a ton of action tags. I felt particularly called out when someone said that beginner writer's characters are always nodding, standing up, smiling, sighing, raising an eyebrow, ect. Because I swear I use these all the time. My characters' heads are constantly bobbing up and down, I bet their heads hurt from nodding all the time. So my question, do you think overuse of action tags are a problem? In a two person scene I usually never use standard dialogue tags, since you can just omit them, but I typically have a lot of action tags.

Ace's Artisanal Alcove

4 months ago

Good to see you're back, typos and all

I use action tags, but I try not to if I can't think of an actual action the character should be doing. In other words, if I don't naturally picture them doing an action, then I don't force it. If the character speaking is the narrator, then I might include some kind of thought of theirs before or after the piece of dialogue.

Sometimes when I'm really struggling I write an entire scene with no kind of tagging at all and then come back later to add in actions, tags, and other various bits of information.

Any kind of description of the character works, it doesn't have to be observing their actions— just make sure you aren't being totally random. Maybe the character is talking about purple being their favorite color, so the narrator notices they're wearing a purple necklace. 
"My favorite color is purple." That tracks; my eyes shift down to the purple necklace that always lays on her neck.

I like dialogue tags. I read fast and get disoriented easily. Two-person conversations are one thing, but I personally think any more characters involved means you absolutely have to tag every piece of dialogue in some manner or fashion.

Ace's Artisanal Alcove

4 months ago
*naturally :) Interesting, I don't think I force action tags personally, I just use them a lot. It feels natural to do so. Really just not sure if I'm overusing them or not though, or what overusing them is. As far as three person conversations go, dialogue tags on every single line of dialogue feels like overkill. I default to the standard said or asked or what have you, but I don't put them on every line. My rule of thumb is it has to be clear from context who's speaking, and that's without taking into consideration the tone of a character's voice. Typically I find that you can get away with about half and half or less in three person conversations.

Ace's Artisanal Alcove

4 months ago

Shoot, you got me there.

Well, you probably shouldn't default to that. And with "dialogue tags" I'm including action tags or general nods to which character is talking. I find that no one's as good at individual character voice as they think they are— while I can maybe guess which character is speaking based off of that, I'd rather know. Isn't it the author's job to tell me what's happening? I hate feeling like I may be misinterpreting something.

Of course, everyone is free to have their own style. I'm just stating what I prefer.

Ace's Artisanal Alcove

4 months ago
Yeah, I was saying that I feel like any kind of tag being on every character feels like overkill, and that you should never use just "character voice" to assume the reader knows which character is talking, so we agree there. But I was saying that it's usually obvious like half the time with no tags, even without relying on character voice at all. I feel like the writing would be bogged down too much with tags every line. Like this, Dylan faced Lily, "You're dumb!" "No you are!" "Hey now," Jay interjects. "Let's be civil." You don't need the dialouge tag for Lily, unless there's another character named Sally who likes to come to Lily's defense or something.

Ace's Artisanal Alcove

4 months ago

I think Dylan directly facing Lily to say that falls under the category I set out of "general nods to which character is talking"

If you've got this much time on your hands, you should go read my contest entry (and everyone else's ofc when you're done)

Ace's Artisanal Alcove

4 months ago

I always feel a compulsion to include describing what people are doing as they are talking in a dialogue scene, as few of my dialogue scenes are two people just standing/sitting there talking at each other.  They are cooking dinner or doing the dishes or working on their computer or something.

Ace's Artisanal Alcove

28 days ago
Today's topic: Overuse of "As". So this is a problem I find myself running into a lot as I write. When I describe character actions, obviously you don't just describe them one after another. Like you don't do, "He walks forward. She clenches her fists." That's obvious. But I find myself doing "As he walks forward, she clenches her fists." Which is fine, but I feel like I overuse it a lot and don't really have alternatives. I find it hard to articulate the specific problem itself, hopefully it's not something unique to me. And it might not be too much of a problem, I see it a decent bit in published novels, but it still feels like I should be doing something different.

Ace's Artisanal Alcove

28 days ago
Maybe the answer is adding more detail so that it makes sense to split the sentences more often?

He walked forward with a menacing air. Tilting her chin up, she clenched her fists, refusing to back down.

Ace's Artisanal Alcove

28 days ago

If you're setting a dramatic tone, "He walks forward. She clenches her fists." works perfectly fine. In fact, "He walks. Walking forward. She clenches her fist. He still approaches." might make it even more dramatic, though of course that's not a perfect example.

But there are, of course, plenty of alternatives. Lemme show you a few examples, starting with my favorite:

1: Semicolons!

"He walks forward; she clenches her fists."

I've seen you say that you don't fully understand the proper way to use semicolons, so I'll give you a brief rundown.

A semicolon separates two independent clauses, which means two complete sentences. To be a complete sentence, it needs to have a subject (the noun acting) and an action (the verb being done). A complete sentence can be anywhere from "He is." to "Despite popular belief, he is one of the brightest people in the room, and plenty of people love him."

Another important thing to remember is that the two connected sentences have to be related. If she clenches her fist because he walks forward (which was my assumption), the semicolon works. However, you shouldn't connect two unrelated clauses, i.e., "She walked; school got out for the day." There are cases where those two sentences could be connected or made to be connected, but pretend they aren't.

Unlike a comma, a semicolon doesn’t require a coordinating conjunction (FANBOYS: for, and, nor, but, or, yet, so) to connect two independent clauses. However, you can use a transitional phrase (also, however, meanwhile), but you'll need a comma after the phrase. You also don't need to capitalize the second sentence.

The point of the semicolon is that it's a longer pause than a comma, yet not as final and separating as a period; it also helps vary your punctuation. It can denote cause-and-effect and highlights the connection between two clauses. It's important to consider the intended rhythm and flow of the writing rather than using this everywhere it's grammatically correct.

2: Adding Details!

Oh, looks like Mizal already got there. Go look at that.

3: Other Subordinating Conjunctions!

"While he walks forward, she clenches her fists."

Here are some examples of subordinating conjunctions other than "as":
after, because, while, before, where, if, once, that, unless, whether, though

I'll mention that it's a subordinating conjunction due to joining a dependent clause (fragment) to an independent clause. "As he walked" is a sentence fragment on its own.

4: Coordinating Conjunctions!

"He walks forward, and she clenches her fists."

Coordinating conjunctions (FANBOYS) can connect two independent clauses and are usually accompanied by a comma. Pick one based on the meaning you want your sentence to have: contrast (“but,” “yet”), addition (“and”), choice (“or”), cause (“for,” “so”), or negation (“nor”).

When the conjunctions connect independent clauses, a comma is usually recommended before the conjunction. If the clauses are very short and closely related, the comma can sometimes be omitted: "He walked and she stared." Usually people still like commas there, but my point is you don't need them, especially if your writing is already pretty comma-heavy.

5: Participial Phrases!

"Walking forward, he notices her clenched fists."

These include a present participle (what you get when "ing" form of a verb becomes a modifier) and any other modifiers (like "forward" in this case)

They can modify nouns: "Walking forward, he notices her clenched fists."/"Noticing her clench her fists, he walks forward."/"Clenching her fists, she watches him step forward." All of these examples tell you something the subject, "he" (or "she", in the last example), is doing, beyond the action.

They can function as part of a verb phrase: "He starts walking forward while she clenches her fists." "Starts" is the verb here.

These have to be separated by commas when at the beginning of a sentence.

6: Gerund Phrases!

"Noticing his approach makes her clench her fists."

A gerund is a verb disguised as a noun (so, functionally, a noun).

Its placement in a sentence depends on the role it takes.

In "Noticing his approach makes her clench her fists," the gerund acts as the subject, and so goes at the beginning. "She began clenching her fists in frustration." The gerund phrase is the object of "began", so goes after that.

"He times his steps with the clenching of her fists." That was hard to think of an example for. Anyway, modifying the preposition makes it go at the end of the phrase. See what I did there?

7: Prepositional Phrases!

"With each step he takes, her fists clench."

A prepositional phrase starts with a preposition and includes its object along with any modifiers.

Examples of prepositions: above, at, below, beside, between, in, near, on, under, after, before, by, during, since, until, across, around, past, through, to, toward

There are more, but I'm sure that's plenty.

 

Hopefully all that helps a little.

Links to click for similar (better) information:
Basic Sentence Structure: Additive Sentences
Cumulative Sentences, Part 1
Cumulative Sentences, Part 2
Relative Sentences

Ace's Artisanal Alcove

27 days ago
Goddamn it, I should've known semicolons would strike again. Really though, this is insanely useful, almost kind of want to say it should be an article. It's definitely something to reference in editing I think, as you go through a scene and try and get the flow right. I know most of the grammar stuff, I kind of think of semicolons as cordniating conjuctions without any of the added implications behind then, like how but adds context that ; doesn't. But it isn't something that'd come to mind much, so it's really good to have it all spelled out. If I was trying to do this on my own, I'd likely either change it to 2, 3, 4 or 5, though I've heard 5 is bad because it creates distance from the pov character? I'm not too sure how good or bad it is to add "filter words" like "noticed". Anyway, this is gold. Hope someone comms this, and if you wanted to expand it you could make an article around controling the flow of your prose.

Ace's Artisanal Alcove

27 days ago
5 is not useful for your specific example, but there are times when it would work quite well.

Ace's Artisanal Alcove

27 days ago
Yeah, I find myself throwing filter words to speak to what the character specifically cares about sometimes, I just know I hear a lot about it being bad practice. E: I just realized I'm really dumb, I was focusing on the "he noticed" and not the actual participial phrase. When I say filter words that's what I'm referring to, and I'm aware you don't need to use them to use participial phrases.

Ace's Artisanal Alcove

27 days ago

I was aboutta say.

Yeah, you can't add words that add nothing. That's a terrible practice.

As for making this an article, that would take a lot of expanding, and Gower has pretty much covered all the sentence structure stuff. But I'm glad you found it useful.