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https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/poll-48percent-of-americans-think-trumps-shithole-remarks-were-racist/ar-AAuMokF?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=mailsignout
This is the thing that mildly puzzles me:
According to a poll from Business Insider's partner MSN, 48% of respondents thought Trump's comment was racist, while 51% said it wasn't and 1% wasn't sure. The 51% puzzles me.
51% said "shithole" is not a racist term to describe a country. So if some fellow said the USA is a "shithole" country, based on this logic,"51%" of Americans would say it is not offensive? Or is the measure of racism is based on which country it is applied to? Does that speak more for the individuals supporting the opinion or the strength of the argument? If anyone could help explain this discrepancy to me I would be glad because, to the impartial author, it mildly seems like the world has gone crazy.

I'd say in regards to Trump saying other countries were shit holes, I'm part of the 51%. Saying a country's a shithole has nothing to do with race, I'm not sure how it would.

Taking the racial element out how would the people of these countries feel? He did not describe specific countries but referred to countries in general to the extent that the AU (African Union) has mildly, and South Africa specifically, requested apologies , it is a incredibly foolish/stupid/moronic way for a world leader to behave. A comparison would be if Trump had referred to EU members as assholes and suggested immigrants from (name-a-non-European-country) would be preferred. I may be wrong but that is more or less as how it is being perceived by the more anti-American countries of the AU.

Yeah, I'd imagine they'd be pissed, and super offended, and the fact that the president of the US said that in a meeting when he's supposed to be the face of the country is pretty disgraceful.

But, you asked how people could think they weren't racist. They weren't. Retarded, sure, offensive, sure, damaging, sure. But not racist. I think, but perhaps I'm mistaken, if asked were the comments inappropriate or stupid, far more people would say it is. 

How can describing certain countries as "shitholes" not be racist to more than 50% of opinions polled? I accept this thread is boringly politically and worthy of deletion generally but this is a discrepancy which I specifically, and Europe generally, find hard to understand. I would appreciate the sympathy of the admins and mods to wait a while until someone could explain this one in satisfactory terms (I pose the question here because this is the most likely part of the internet where I hope for an intelligent answer).

Pretty sure nobody was intending on deleting this thread. (At least I certainly wasn't)

Shithole is a pretty generic term. I mean it's an insult but it's a stretch to say it has anything to do with race. I'd be more likely to use it to describe a website or a bad restaurant.

Google autocomplete pulls up Shitholes of America, Shitholes of the world, Shitholes of England...

How dare you... bloody racist.

Anyway looked up the context of the OP and lol Haiti absolutely is a shithole. I mean unless you enjoy the cost effectiveness of their child slaves or dream of one day raping a ten year old.

^ You're awesome Mizal. Glad to see some people nowadays aren't politically correct morons.

First of all, describing the physical and economic structure of a country isn’t racist, especially considering that it is indeed a fact. Africa is categorized as a third world continent, which means that they have no allegiance and are non-developing. They aren’t just a third-world country; they’re a third-world CONTINENT. The greatest towns and cities ever built in Africa were built by Europeans… which the Africans chased out with spears and blow-darts. Although Africa has some of the worlds most diamonds, gold, oil, bauxite, uranium, and Iron, over 40% of them still live in houses built out of mud, clay, and feces. Over 40% of the people there are currently in poverty, after the U.S. continuously sent money, set up charities, and tried to help abolish many of the diseases that plagued their families. Africa has had literally hundreds of civil wars with each other over women, children, and land.

91% of the worlds HIV positive children live in Africa. *gasp.* Hopefully that wasn’t too racist and discriminative. Although I don’t like Trump, calling Africa a “shithole” is a legitimate fact. That’s why Africans are immigrating here and no one is immigrating to Africa.

They still have cannibalism tribes, many places don’t have written language, most governments are corrupt, and most people there have never seen a lightbulb in their life. Although this isn’t all of Africa, it’s about 90% of it. 

Also, I don't think somone calling America a shithole is racist;especially considering we're a World Power. Can you explain this to me?

While this is filled with a lot of dickish hyperbole and exaggerations, I feel it's worth skipping it to address a lot of that is routed in the exploitation of the nation by foreign powers, and hell, it's not like the situation is the fault of any of the Africans, so it seems like there's a lot of unnecessary malice towards Africans in this.

Calm down hardman.

The fact that the President of the United State of America described certain countries as a "shithole" and more than 50% of the voting population in that particular survey were ok with that is what scares me. I think the fault may lie with me and my oldish wayness :)

'Being okay with' and thinking it's specifically racist are two separate things though.

Again, the survey didn't say they were OK with it. They said they didn't find it racist. I didn't find it racist, but I sure as shit would be disgraced if my president said that.

You're only scared of the truth. Telling the truth isn't racist. Stating something the way it evidently is shouldn't be "racist" or "hateful." Although the word shit *gasp* is bad, I could describe Africa as being much worse than that.

Have you ever been to any country in Africa to base your opinion on or are you speaking from second-hand sources Bellsprout? :)

People keep telling me Auschwitz was bad but lol not like they ever saw it for themselves. Not like you can go by statistics these days anyway so I'm betting the Jews had it pretty good and just liked to whine. As they will do.

Kill 'em Mizal!

No actually I Godwinned myself there, damn. Should've gone with Syria.

I'm actually pretty surprised how many Americans thought it wasn't racist. 

The polls could just be wrong. Some occasionally are. Others could view s-hole as a mainly race-neutral word (which I do), so they simply assume it to not be racist (and the US has a bunch of terms that are blatantly racist and still used today). Others may view it as not racist because it was directed towards a country instead of the people. Meh, idk.

Also, as a patriotic white rural hick, I would actually not be offended as all by somebody calling the US a s-hole. Everybody has their own opinion, and I sort of expect most countries these days to not be overtly fond of us. Steve may have desensitized me as well.

Personally, if DT said s-hole (or s-house) then I would view it as mostly idiocy (he's the President, don't say things like that) with a bit of racism.

^ I agree 90%

America's a shithole, to be fair. It's run by a maniac, stuck with an insanely corrupted government with power split between two near identical groups, and it's built on endless attrocities.

I mean I think it goes without saying that a President should only call other countries shitholes in private though, no matter how true the statement might be.

I want a President that's an asshole, but like, a classy one.

Most third-world countries are shit-holes for a variety of reasons. Lack of cleanliness, weak government, high violence and crime rates, lack of technology, etc. Even in the United States, you have plenty of places that qualify as shit-holes. Even specific entities like business can be shit-holes. But it's just a general term for a place that really sucks. There's no special connotation to it beyond that.

Something racist would be like calling a place a Wetback City, a Nigger Town, or I guess if you really want to be all inclusive, Redneck Central Station, though the latter is probably more ethnic based than race.

Yeah, it's pretty hard to be racist against the whole white race. You've got honkies, which is just objectively funny, or crackers, which is like "You motherfuckers used to whip and enslave my people!", so it's hardly an insult. So "redneck"'s the closest we have, and that's fairly American.

What do I call it when I'm surrounded by redneck wetbacks?

An incest Gangbang?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjG1oCv1t3YAhXOmuAKHSQFD0EQjhwIBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fthehungergamesrp.wikia.com%2Fwiki%2FFile%3APepe.gif&psig=AOvVaw1t_ta4Gqw44PgxuIFOBRYj&ust=1516233022645518

Are you okay in the head? 

me? Hell no.

"Are you mega retardo?" Is a much better word choice.

Yes. I am.

Please don't be mean to my adopted son.

Yay! I'm adopted! I feel so blessed! :D

That was an incest gangbang your real mom regretted, but it seems to have worked out for the best.

I can't tell if you're being nice or mean...

I can't be both at once?

You can't be my adopted son without getting abused once in awhile, sorry.

(In time you'll come to enjoy it.)

... ok

I'm more surprised that Americans would rather have more fat, lazy and soft "first world" immigrants instead of hard-working people who have been hungry at least once in their lives. It's really baffling.

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Saying that a certain country is a bad place is not necessarily racist. It is possible that the motivation for saying something like that is racism, and also possible that it isn't.

Here's Google's definition of racism: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

Now if the aforementioned belief is due the prejudicial views held the speaker, in line with the above definition (and particularly directed at a certain set of people), then it could be classified as racism. Otherwise not.

However, this is really just turns out to be an unproductive debate over semantics. At the end of the day, it isn't a very pleasant or wise thing to say.

It's just a weird OP coming from a guy who in the past has explicitly stated, "The only reason I live in a shithole country like China is because of the easy access to underage hookers."

Note that it's been 24 hours and Will has yet to deny these allegations.

Calling someplace a shithole isn't racist. I call Russia a shithole all the time, and that isn't racist, because Russian isn't a race. Also, people really need to stop paying attention to Trump's offensive behavior, which is likely the cause of Down Syndrome that is just so deeply a part of him that people don't realize it. If you give the autists attention, they'll take it as encouragement.

 

While I would have no problem with the President calling any of these countries shitholes, especially in a closed door meeting with Congressmen, the claim that he called any of these countries a "shithole" has yet to be substantiated, and Trump himself denies that it happened.

The white house didn't deny that specific remark though, which is very telling. 

The White House didn’t comment at first because the spokesperson obviously doesn’t know what Trump has or hasn’t said in a private meeting. Trump himself denied the claim afterwards.

And we're supposed to believe Trump? Lmao, dude's a businessman, he was out of the womb lying.

That's what you're going with? "Dude's a businessman"? Because, rather than point to the fact he's lied many other times, or hell, even going with blaming it on him being a politician, you decide the stereotype you'll go for is businessman. Interesting.

I just find it funny that one of people's biggest reasons for voting for him was that he "wasn't a politician". He's a businessman, which can be even worse at times. And when I say business I mean big scale, money bags guy. There's a lot of people in business who can be honest, hard-working people. There can be people in politics that are the same way.

Yeah, but again, you went with "he's a businessman", rather than "he's a notorious liar", which is a bizarre response.

Is there anything you won't argue with me about?

You said something quite silly, I pointed it out. It's like if I was like "Are we supposed to believe Trump? He's a cis, white, straight man, of course he's racist". Like, no, that's not the point you hit him on.

You act as if businessmen, lawyers, and politicians aren't typically seen as corrupt. Ew, I'm not a fag snowflake. Thanks though.

Well, I'd say you are quite a fag snowflake, but that's besides the point. Anyhow, so? It's a silly stereotype the all businessmen are corrupt, it's even worse that lawyers are. Hell, I'd even have given you the "all politicians are corrupt", because they're part of a system that can be shown to be corrupt and based off power, but hell, you didn't even go that way. It might be a common stereotype, but spreading it when there's a far more obvious thing to point out, that Trump's been caught lying many times, is just retarded. It's about as helpful as pointing out he's a white dude since he must be racist, because that's a shitty stereotype just like the businessman thing.

Alright, whatever. Continue to act like a child. Now you're twisting my words, I never said all businessmen or all politicians. Not every white man is a school shooter. Not every gay man is feminine. I think you get my point. Don't make it sound like I said all of them when that's clearly not what I meant. Yes, he has been caught lying. He's also constantly tweeting idiotic things that it takes a quick Google search to prove wrong. My point was that he's a businessman, his lying can be traced back as far as his Apprentice days, I'm sure. Dude's a pig and a liar. 

No, you didn't say "all", but it was implied. It's like saying "Of course he's a criminal, he's a black man!" That statement doesn't say all black men are criminals, but the implication is there. 

Yes, it was totally implied that I would stereotype literally every businessman and literally every politician. I really hope you can detect the sarcasm through the text.

Yeah, I can, but it doesn't seem fitting, seeing as I'm sure you'd agree "Of course he's a criminal, he's black!" is racism and implies that all black people are criminals.

Oh definitely, I'm such a racist honkey. I'm gonna go fuck my sister and blast some country music, yeehaw. USA. Happy?

I always like how quickly you get upset and start strawmanning. It actually quite fits the snowflake fag thing. I never said you were a racist, I just showed how what you said was bullshit by equating it to a far more obvious racial thing, at which point you acted like a faggot again.

Strawmanning? That was another attempt at sarcasm. And you've been calling me a racist throughout this entire thread, whether you meant it or it was just to prove a point or whatever. 

Would you care to show where I called you a racist? I only ever pointed out how obviously offense and stereotypical your words would be if they were said about blacks and crime rather than businessmen and lies, which is obvious. You're a dipshit who is strangely stereotypical about businessmen, but probably not a racist.

God, you're annoying. You didn't call me on it outright, but you implied it (funny how that works, implying things, huh?). Well of course it would sound bad because it's a racial issue, which is a problem in the modern day. You're comparing an extreme to something small. And you're a cunty asswad faggot that is only liked because he writes well and insults children.

Why is God annoying you?

Oh yay, religion and nitpicking, my two favorite things.

You need to stop failing so spectacularly against Steve. 

I don't really see these stupid internet spats as winning and losing. It's just fun to debate.

What a strange response. I know I find these quite fun, since I tend to seek them out, but that's because I like arguing and winning. If I was constantly losing these and sounding stupid, I doubt I'd enjoy them. Anyhow, you clearly get upset at these, as has been shown in the past, so try not to play the "I'm just doing this because I'm having fun! This is funny to me! I'M NOT UPSET!" card.

I do enjoy them. I think I'd need a definition of the word upset in your eyes, because I feel like you act like I run crying from the screen or something. Do I get passionate about it and I want to defend myself? Of course, maybe you could call that getting upset.

No, I think you get upset, as in angry, frustrated, sad. You know, upset. We've had enough conversations in the past to prove that point, I wouldn't try to argue it. In fact, I recall you making a big thread to try get us both banned because of it. Hardly something you enjoy.

I enjoy them. If I didn't enjoy them, wouldn't I just log out or ignore you? Ah, then yes, I suppose I do get upset. I don't seem to share any of the same viewpoints as the rest of you, so I get frustrated in that sense. That was fun.

Hardly.  If you were upset, you wouldn't be able to log out, because you'd be madly thrashing at me in the hopes of getting something, like all the trolls that have attacked the sight with tears in their eyes. It seems clear it's far more of a case that you're upset, furiously typing on a keyboard with tears streaming down your face than you're like I am, enjoying a good old scrap.

Yep. I'm sobbing right now. My cut marks are rusted out and I'm bleeding.

Again, that seems like sarcasm, but sarcasm in the face of facts isn't the best response.

That time was sarcasm.

I thought as much, but again, I've explained why that's a silly idea, but it just sounds like you're admitting defeat and seeing the light.

No, I didn't imply it. I showed you how your phrasing was quite obviously stereotypical by showing the same phrasing in a circumstance more likely to show it. I never implied you're racist in any way, simply showed how you were being an idiot, and that that would be even more clear if you'd said it about race rather than profession. Sure, stereotyping by profession isn't as bad as by race, but both are stupid, so I just helped you see that. You're welcome, by the way.

Oh, and thanks, I'm glad you think I write well.

Okay yeah, it was a stereotype, but stereotypes exist for a reason. I see your point, though.

My pleasure.

Ah, you're still here. Some stereotypes are based in fact, yeah, but stereotypes are stupid, so don't use them. The blacks are criminals stereotype exists for a reason, but it's still moronic to use it.

True.

Take an online course in propositional/predicate logic & semantics of the English language and you'd understand why Steve is right. Or just familiarize yourself with English a bit more.

"Dude's a businessman, he was out of the womb lying", implies that all businessmen are liars. Analogous to Steve's racism example.

Or people shouldn't automatically assume something was meant when it obviously wasn't?

I didn't assume that's what you meant. I pointed out it was stupid that you said that. All you had to say was "You're right, it implies something I didn't mean", and we were done. But no, you argued, with someone who seems to have proven they're better at this whole thing than you. Not your best moment.

It would be a lot easier to admit that you're right if you would just not be a complete cunt when talking to people on here. You could, I dunno, try being nice and reasonable while explaining your point?

Somone's awfully sensative

 

Jesus, did you just shit your way out of the retard clinic? I just don't see a reason to be an asshole if there's not a reason to be one. Just because "it's the internet and we can act however we want because we're behind a screen" is socially accepted, I think it's bullshit. We're all human, we can all get along in a proper manner.

Again, you were the asshole here, I was being reasonable.

Can we ban this dude that's arguing with you?

If only that's how it worked, I'm sure I'd have been banned long ago. I don't believe I'm breaking any rules, though.

Why on earth would we do that? If we started banning everyone who argued with me, it'd just be me and @Russianmonk sitting in an empty site, bored out of my tree.

Wait a sec, I can argue too!

Your profile picture sucks. 

 

 

Fuck it, ban them all. There's nothing worth saving.

This would have been more convincing if you had one at all.

Go find an objectively superior snake and come back.

I suppose I was being an asshole, but I wasn't an asshole towards you. I just said I wasn't a snowflake fag, then you proceeded to call me one.

Being stereotypical seems to be quite an asshole thing, and you turned my simple correcting of what you said to "Oh, you always try to argue with me!", which is also a dick move, and hell, you argued when you were clearly wrong and seemed to have know it because you think I'm condescending, which is not only an asshole move, but a stupid one.

Not really. Stereotypes can be based in facts. And you do, lmao. We have never once been in a thread where you haven't corrected me or actually tried having a real, nice conversation with me. Alright.

They can be, but the black criminal stereotype is based in facts. That doesn't make it any less assholish. And the reason we never have nice conversations is because you say stupid shit that needs correcting, and when I do that, you don't just apologize and thank me for correcting, but you get upset and I do what I do and go for your throat.

That's a valid point. I'd disagree. I tried PMing you at one point, asking to have a fresh start and your immediate response was "no, you're a cunt and I want nothing to do with you."

You are a cunt, and I don't want anything to do with you. I knew you'd just repeat your shitty behaviour, as you've done. Perhaps me less awful, and we'd get along better. Now that Taco's back, she's less of a cunt, and I get along far better with her.

And what exactly are you disagreeing with? You being the asshole here, or the black thing?

Alright then. I'd be open to having an actual conversation, but I suppose that'll have to wait until you're ready.

The asshole part. I just meant that I've tried reconciling. 

I'd talk to you if you were less of a cunt, or if a conversation actually came up. If you'd said something like "You're right Steve, I just think this about businessmen because capitalism", that would've been fun and we could've chat about it. But no, you turned what could've possibly been a conversation to this. So yeah, perhaps if you're less of a cunt down the line, we'll end up having a conversation.

You're right Steve, I just think this about businessmen because capitalism. 

Can we talk now?

Nah, you've already spoiled the moment, it'd seem forced now. Especially since I now think you're as much of a cunt as you've ever been, and don't particularly want to get to know you in any way. Perhaps later, if you ever actually change.

Lmao. We'll see what happens down the line, then.

I did respond quite nicely. First, I just pointed it out without insulting you, then again responded without insulting you, then said what you said was "silly". Then you brought up fag snowflakes, which made it clear you weren't willing to be reasonable, so I went for your throat.

But, I'm glad you agree I'm right. Maybe in future don't argue stupid shit that you know is wrong because you don't like the other side, and have the balls to admit you're wrong and apologize for being a twat.

Maybe it's just the fact that you always have an aura of "I'm better than everyone else". You do seem rather condescending.

I suppose time shall tell.

Well in this case, I'd quite happily say I am better than you, but that's besides the point. You're the one who started shit, and then blamed me for it because I was correcting you and that hurt your feelings, and you were wrong in the first place so it shouldn't matter.

You are quite better than me in every sense of the word, yes. Alright, whatever you say.

Careful before Steve deems it necessary to add that response to his great wall of quotes.

I was on his wall of quotes at one point but he took it down. I thought it was kinda cool.

A delightful suggestion. I might, unsure.

That seems like sarcasm, but being sarcastic in the face of facts is never really a good idea, because the sarcasm doesn't really make sense. It's like a flat earther sarcastically saying "Yeah, the Earth is round!"

Where I said you're better at everything than I am?

Yes.

Not even close to sarcasm. My self-esteem is ass. I suck at pretty much everything I do lmao. Probably has to do with depression or anxiety, but I've never gotten diagnosed. Oh well.

Oh, delightful, you admit it. That's fun. Cheers.

Yep.

You must be very bored today.

Not particularly. All I wanted was to point out that it was strange he specified Trump was a businessman rather than a known liar, he took it from there by not just going "I suppose so".

Edit: Funnily enough, actually, I'm listening to a law lecture I missed today while this happens, so I suppose I might be tossed in with those pesky liars the businessmen, lawyers and politicans.

One time Steve Austin did a Stone Cold Stunner on Trump for WWE and I heard it was fake! All of it! Trump is such a liar.

Notice that I didn’t say Trump must be saying the truth. I said that the claims are unsubstantiated.

I think Steve and Mizal summed it up pretty well, but I'll throw my two cents in. I hate Trump as much as the next guy, but yeah, wouldn't call it racist. He didn't use any racial slurs or even speak on people of color as far as I'm aware, so yeah. An asshole, but not a racist, at least in this case.

Well I’m sure this thread has answered Will’s question and definitely convinced him that the world has gone crazy.

Always glad to be of help.

In any case, didn’t find shithole to be a racist term to describe a country. But then again, I sort of like it when the world goes crazy. Makes the news a lot more interesting.

Haha yeah, it's cleared up my puzzlement, shithole is not a racist term, trump is a terrible person and there are some interesting people on the forum determined to annoy Steve. :D

I usually don't care much about media outcries and the like, but I want to make one thing clear:

A derogatory comment =/=  a discriminatory comment =/= a racist comment. 

I feel the difference in meaning between these adjectives is starting to blur more and more nowadays.

Firstly, discrimination is treating people differently based on certain characteristic. You may just treat dude A better than dude B because his left toenail is longer.  You are now discriminating against people with short left toenails. You may be weird, have an obscure fetish or whatever, but this is not racist or evil. Fuck, you even have something called positive discrimination. Discrimination is not bad on itself, everyone does it. Do you treat a complete random stranger exactly the same you would do your close friends?  No. It's not normal, not natural and often times not even smart to do.

A derogatory comment lacks respect, it is critical and uncomplimentary. Even this is not evil on itself. If one of your mates gets himself pissed in some backway alley, gets his keys lost and you call him out on the complete drunken twat he is, you're being derogatory. You're of course justified in calling a drunken twat, but if you otherwise don't act differently to him you're not being discriminatory or racist. Even when you're the white guy and your mate is black.

Racism, in my book, is simply discrimination based on race. But I have to get my head out of my arse for that one. Years of misuse has changed its meaning to the belief that other races are inferior to your own. Even this is not evil on its own, just watch and compare the skin colour of swimmers and marathon runners. Genetic variation is awesome, it makes different populations on average better or worse in different areas. By the way, note the difference between population and race. The problem is that the current fuckwits are missing the keypoint of averages (and a lot of others points but I don't want to make a iron curtain of text). While all the final swimmers in may be of my glorious white race (or wtf that even means), put any average dude who claims whites are better in swimming against a black athlete and he will lose the race big time.

The single thing that makes those above three words evil, is a difference in power between the actor and victim. Western society is based on equality, and still holds that value alongside freedom in its highest regard. Nowadays our understanding and use of equality has effectively changed to offering equal opportunities for everyone. Which is also bullshit, upbringing, for one instance, plays one of the biggest roles in success. Nevertheless people like the idea. But at the point where the people in power are doing the above three things all aspirations of equality become lost. This makes us, the citizens of western and arguably even modern society, mad. It grinds our gears, makes us gnash our teeth and try to make this wrong right again. Sadly this effect is lately being used to censor opinions who are not even racist, let alone 'evil racist'. This only breeds more resentments and can turn men into actual racists, which holds another meaning entirely.

Alright having cleared that up, Trumps comment was derogatory, probably discriminatory but not racist.

The bigger question is: why do you want, or even let your head of state make derogatory comments to other sovereign countries? 

Alright, have a nice night everyone.