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As some of you know, there is a giant shootout in Dallas between an unidentified sniper(snipers?) and police at the current riots.
The cops were there to make sure personal property wasn't damage, to keep fights from breaking out, and to arrest troublemakers. This is, unfortunately, speculation; as I only found one report talking about what they were doing there.
This has been sparked over the several shootings this last week, mostly police on black minority.
I have gone over very many videos and decided that I remain neutral as I see both side have been at fault since day one.

To start, the riots. MLK would be very upset with us as he told us to not riot, but peacefully protest. And it started this way. But going hand in hand with the riots has been the police reactions. They, too, should have been peaceful unless their lives and the lives of innocent were threatened. I do understand they did this before it started to escalate. To this day, I am unsure who 'fired the first shot'. Police? The rioters? I just don't know. Then there's media, who reacted poorly as they always do. They tried to build a car with nothing more then a feather, a socket, and some duct tape. Good job, media.

Fast forward to now. Everyone is scared of each other. Blacks feel like they cannot trust police, and police shows them the same reactions. Here's what I saw wrong in these recent event and my thoughts/opinion

1. If you have a weapon, IMMEDIATELY tell an officer and DO NOT MOVE UNTIL DIRECTED. It doesn't matter if it's illegal or not. It's more worth going to jail/paying fines then it is being shot. If an officer sees it before you tell him, chances of violence escalates. Hell, if I even had a fake knife in my purse and I got pulled over, I'd let the officer know. IT'S NOT WORTH YOUR LIFE.
2. Despite being trained, police act on as much instinct as you and I. However, I feel that more then 2 shots are extremely excessive. I do realize some weapon will fire several shots in a moment but you should not need to pull the trigger more then once. If you don't know how to use it/aim it, you shouldn't have it. This goes for cops and civilians alike.
3. Black Lives Matter riots have become uncontrollable. Many despite race, age, or social status see it as a chance to do whatever they want and take the eyes off of the real reason this whole thing started! This is why BLM has gotten such a bad name, take BLM back!
4. For the love of god if you're going to give an officer a gun, give them a TASER or BATON and a BODY CAM run by someone other then the police. This might not stop corrupt cops and crazy people, but it will help bring to light what happens beside speculations and easily manipulated media! And it will give the police officer the option beside using lethal force!
5. Stop judging people on appearance and start judging them on action. The visual stereotypes needs to stop. How many of you got offended because I wrote 'black' instead of 'African American'? Ho many of you got mad and said 'you know nothing bc ur a potato"? No, I don't know everything. Hell, I wish I could so I would have answers for everything! But I don't.
6. And stop. Pointing. Fingers. We won't know who's behind this until we know all the facts, so please be patience.

In the end, don't do anything drastic. Be like Ghandi, who won wars without even lifting a finger.

TLDR: Everyone involved in is at fault for the riots and brutality, as they keep thinking they can be protected by their side for being blatantly disrespectful, breaking the law, or fucking up big time.

Lil update

A dude surrendered to the police, a African American male wearing camo and body armor.  There's a video on the web rn if you look up 'dallas shooter apprehended'

They also called in FBI for a suspicious package

one maybe two shooter are still at large

You kno nothing bc u are au gratin

 

In seriousness, my strategy on this issue is this: I will wait for the dust to settle and pick up the evidence from the rubble. Then, when people ask why I didn't speak out or something, I will honestly say that I am a scientist and I refuse to pass judgement on a picture which I had not completed.

-gasp- how did you know?!

 

Also, yes, you summed it up very well.

 

As someone from Louisiana, all I can say is a lot of people are scared.

"Be like Ghandi, who won wars without even lifting a finger." >_> ... urgh, did you really have to say Ghandi? The guy called Hitler his friend, told an innocent family member who was doing him a favor that he'd dance for joy if she got carried off by rapists, and he insisted on sleeping with female, underage family members with both parties naked to "test his celibacy"

... Why are we talking about a race and a career as if they're mutually exclusive, anyway? Does no one remember that there are black cops? xD And a few of them have been involved in these incidents?

I know what I think of the events. I'd be interested to get more information, though.

Good point. I can never find information about Gandhi sao I'll go with MLK on this one

Had no idea. All I saw was there was a black guy who got shot(? just bleeding really) in his car and there's memes about it. Never heard about riots in Dallas or snipers etc. Nobody has talked about it so I suppose most of the people I talk to are like me in that they don't care or see it as practically normal / expected at this point.

If there wasn't at least 50 killed it's not really newsworthy on my radar. A sniper having fun with the cops is meh and a riot is boring.

The sniper didn't really have "fun with the cops."

"Five police officers were killed and seven others were injured in the ambush in Dallas that began Thursday night, officials have said, in the deadliest single incident for U.S. law enforcement since September 11, 2001. Two civilians also were injured in the shootings, the office of Dallas' mayor has said." ~ CNN

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/08/us/philando-castile-alton-sterling-protests/

No its the police's fault cuz they're all raycist bullys blah blah blah corrupt pigs blah blah blah 

Strawman harder. 

Sarcasm my good sir

l'm too special to understand sarcasm. 

This is a topic that truly riles me as the majority of the general public does not have a good understanding of the law and how police officers are trained. Many of these "controversies" could be averted if this information gap was shortened. Sadly, the media doesn't care to do that, and instead incites half truth headlines that distort facts to create emotion that will get clicks and viewership.

1) That's generally the smartest avenue you can take. Some states don't require you to inform an officer if you have a concealed carry permit and are currently carrying, but it's still a good idea to let them know. And they'll appreciate the gesture.

If you ever get pulled over, one of the best things you can do is to turn on your interior light, lower all four windows and set your hands on top of the steering wheel until the officer comes to speak to you. They will appreciate the efforts you've taken to make their job easier and safer. The interior light helps them look into your vehicle so they can scan for weapons. Lowering the windows also helps create sight lines. And keeping your hands on top of the wheel lets them know you aren't actively trying to kill them. If you do this and remain polite and respectful, you may very well get out of the ticket, or even asked if you're an officer too.

Also, I feel like some people don't understand this concept: even if you think a law enforcement officer is giving you an illegal command, you listen and do what he or she says anyway. Why? Because it's not an unlawful command unless a court says it is, and you can get additional charges for disobeying. Also, there's the obvious safety concern. If you're compliant and listen, nobody will get physically harmed, and if there is an area that needs redress, you can seek damages in civil court, which is how this is supposed to work. The time to argue is not on the side of the road. That is foolish.

2) Police act far more on instinct than you do. That's what they're training does. Same as soldiers. There's no time to think in a dangerous situation. You train your reflexes and body to react.

Your two shot limit is an excellent example of the ignorance the general public has toward police training and mentality. And I'm not picking on you here, as this is a very common problem So allow me to explain.

In a shoot situation, officers are trained to fire two shots at center mass. Then they reassess as they aim for the head. If the threat has been neutralized, they will cover scan and look for additional threats before holstering. If the threat is still active, the third shot is for the head. Hence a common training drill on a silhouette target: Fire three shots. Two to the chest. Reassess. One to the head if the instructor calls "threat," signalling the threat is still active. Otherwise, hold fire until the instructor gives the command to cover scan and holster.

But real life situations are not ideal. And many times you don't have the luxury of firing at a center mass chest area. Handguns have range limitations. Most shootings occur with seven yards, but obviously some are from further away. Few academies train with handgun fire beyond twenty-five yards, which at the point, I pray you have a long gun. Also, moving targets are not as easy to hit as a standstill piece of paper.

Officers do not "shoot to kill." They do what is necessary to stop the threat. No more, no less.

And not all gunshot wounds are fatal or incapacitating. In fact, officers are trained with simunition rounds (similar to paintballs) to NOT give up a training exercise if they get hit. Quitting means your dead. And your partner's dead. And grandma's dead too. The goal for every officer is to go home at the end of the shift.

3) The title of the "movement" is divisive in itself. If the goal is for understanding and equality, a motto promoting the welfare of all people would receive more support from the community as a whole. But the big problem with this movement is that rioters and extremists seem to want to vindicate every black person shot by police. Well, the fact is, the extreme majority of people that get shot by police, regardless of skin color, are criminals who get shot in legal shoots.

Disgraceful and negligent reporting by the media is largely to blame for stirring up fiery emotions and distorting facts for broader headline appeal.

This past week, an off duty officer in Brooklyn stopped behind another vehicle at a red light late at night. The man in front of the off duty officer exited his vehicle, walked back to the car behind him and proceeded to punch the off duty officer in the head through the car's open window. The off duty officer shot his assailant, and he died. The attacker's girlfriend and some children were in his car at the time of the incident.

The girlfriend's first story was that the attacker never left the car. Then it was that he left the car but never struck the off duty cop. The attacker's family said he was a good man who would never do this. Well, video showed that not only was the girlfriend lying her ass off, but she was actively trying to stop the attacker from hitting the cop. Here's another gem. The attacker had 19 previous arrests, served three prison terms between 1996 and 2010, for attempted robbery, attempted drug sale to an undercover cop, and a stabbing. Not exactly the pillar of the community some are trying to make him out to be.

Yahoo's title for this story was something like "OFF DUTY COP SHOOTS BLACK MAN AT RED LIGHT." Well, if that's not a horrible manipulation of details to convey a fiery headline for click bait, I don't know what is.

Another recent shooting involved two cops in Baton Rogue. They ordered a man to the ground. He did not comply, so they tackled him. Video from a crappy cellphone shows the man on the ground with two cops over him, attempting to restrain him. But you cannot see the man's hands, arms, legs or feet. Just his head and torso.

One of the officer's shouts "He has a gun." More undecipherable words. One of the officers draws. More undecipherable words. And the officer fires. This video sparked outrage and protests.

But the thing is, you can't tell anything useful from this video. People focus on what they see: a man on the ground, with two cops over him, and an officer firing. But they don't think about the important part that the video doesn't show. What was this man doing with his arms, hands, legs and feet? If he was just lying there, then, yeah, this looks like murder. But if he's struggling, squirming, kicking, making furtive motions towards this firearm, then no, it's not. He's trying to kill them.

And this is a common theme with many of these videos, they don't tell the whole story. Do you know of the Rodney King incident? There's an infamous video of him getting bludgeoned by officers wielding batons. Four of the officers were taken to criminal court over this, where they were all acquitted. Why? Because Rodney King was a user of PCP, which can essentially make you impervious to pain. He kept trying to get up. Officers told him to stay down, but he kept resisting. They had no choice but to keep hitting him with the baton. A training instructor testified at their trial saying they didn't follow their training - the prosecution gets smug... until - the instructor finishes by saying, they should have shot him.

When one level of force in an officer's continuum is not working, he or she must rise to the next level. Different situations may require an officer to jump from the first part of the continuum immediately to the last. Think of it as a circle rather than a linear pathway. Officer presence; verbal commands; soft hands techniques; aggressive hands techniques; OC spray; taser; baton; and firearms all play a role, assuming the officer has all of those tools.

As a side note, those same four officers later received civil rights violation trials. Two were acquitted, and two were found guilty, but even then, only those two officers' last 6-7 baton strikes were deemed unlawful.

So things are not as simple as they appear, and videos often do not tell the full tale.

4) Did you know that a man wielding a knife can cover 20 feet in the amount of time it takes to draw a firearm from the holster, aim and fire? The media has a bad habit of calling knife wielding criminals "unarmed." But knives can kill and cause serious bodily harm. These men are not "unarmed." Anyway, this is why officers always have their guns trained on people with knives and vocally order them to drop the knife and make no sudden movements. A sudden movement is going to be taken as an attempt on someone's life.

Drop the bloody knife.

Also consider, if the officer dies or gets otherwise taken out of the fight, who protects the innocent bystanders?

Remember that kid from Ohio that had the toy gun, with the orange tip removed, last year that got shot? Police ordered him to raise his hands. What did he do? He raised his shirt and went to grab his toy gun. Now, it's almost a certainty he was trying to show them it was a toy, but he got shot solely because he didn't listen to the officer's commands. They think you have a real gun! Don't grab it! But this was a senseless death that could have been avoided if the public understood the police perspective and training. They order you to raise your hands. And you reach for a gun. They're going to fire.

A Grand Jury correctly declined to charge the officers.

Now, I do recall a bad shoot last year that was high profile. I believe it was in South Carolina. A man fled from his car during a traffic stop, and the officer shot him in the back... then proceeded to - in rather obvious fashion - plant a taser on the man. Officers can shoot fleeing felons if they believe they pose an imminent risk to others. This guy... had a traffic stop and no reason to believe he was particularly dangerous.

This officer was promptly charged with murder.

True police officers will tell you that man was a criminal masquerading as an officer. They do not want people like this among their ranks anymore than anyone else, perhaps even less so, as these criminals tarnish their reputations and garner public outrage against them as a whole.

5) I don't have anything directly related to this. But I'll just note that riot control can be very complex. People have businesses and property that need and deserve protection from looters and rowdy crowds. Burning, pillaging and destroying property are crimes. People have a right to peaceful protest, but once you start to riot, you're nothing but a common criminal.

If you're among a crowd of vandals, do not be surprised if you get hit with tear gas or other crowd control devices in the chaos. Distance yourself from destruction, like a sane, law abiding, intelligent human being.

A personal anecdote, when I was in college, one street held a block party every year. I showed up with a friend one year. Police had the street blocked off for them, and the block party organizers had their local government permits. But it was early and already getting chaotic. People pissing in the streets. People tossing beer cans and bottles at passing cop cars. My friend and I exchanged concerned glances, and I suggested we go catch a flick at the cinema. He thought about it, but declined, electing to hang out on the periphery. I left and went to watch what turned out to be a really shitty movie. The block party went into full blown chaos and got tear gassed and shut down. My friend caught a healthy blast of tear gas himself as it spread out, despite just idling with a beer off to the side, minding his own business.

These are things you risk when you place yourself in these situations. My friend agreed and acknowledged the police only did what needed to be done long before... I don't know why they kept giving that block permits. They got tear gassed four years straight I want to say.

6) Generally a very good idea. Facts trickle out in these things over time as the truth is revealed. Save the crucifixion until all the questions are answered. And don't blindly praise a man as a victim and throw a riot in his "honor" just because he got shot. There's likely a very good reason for why he was. If not, the courts will bring justice, not torch toting mobs and vandals.

--------------------

Long, yes, but there's a reason why police operate the way they do. And so many people don't understand the laws that are out there that give police authority and protection to do the things that need done. These men and women have families to go home to after all.

The tactics and training law enforcement officers use exist to keep both them and the innocent alive. If people would simply follow police commands, and allow the court system to address issues of misconduct, we would live in a much safer place and many of these controversies would cease to be a thing.

Oh... and if you're curious what happens when a police officer doesn't shoot when he should. I have a link for that. This is now used as a training video in almost all academies. It's an example of taking action too late, and falling into the trap of training scars. But it is a real video, of a real officer fatality. It is EXTREMELY graphic and violent. I want to stress that now. This is not suitable for children.

Youtube has their one warnings before you can watch it, and I'm not going to hyperlink the web address, so if you watch it, it's on your own volition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQe2tWhKUSQ

Police need the compliance and support of the public, so that we may have less of this.

Thank you, Bucky. Your comment was well written, and totally on point; I wish that reporting was more so.

Holy shit, best 30 minute read ever. You literally summed up and pointing out things I never thought of.

Kudos to you, good sir.

Yeah, I just wish police departments would make a stronger effort to help the public understand this. But sadly, they don't have the cooperation of the media, and big city police departments are often bogged down by serious politics. Having the mayor be the police chief's boss gets very messy the bigger the city gets.

Yes, there are a lot of things you can do to prevent yourself from getting shot, but in most of these situations I believe the officers could've handled it in a non-lethal way. If someone is unarmed and on the ground (even if they are struggling) it is not necessary to shoot them.

You believe? Okay. Details. Explain how.

This is precisely the problem with the vast majority of the public when they think or converse about police issues. It's easy to say, I don't think this or that, without offering a safe, reasonable and practical alternative. Police are trained the way they are for a reason. It's the best known way currently available to promote both their safety and the safety of innocent bystanders. Not to mention, the vast majority of the public is ignorant of not only how police are trained, but also of the law itself and how the court system works.

In the incident I referred to, a clearly audible, "He has a gun," was shouted. You can most certainly kill or severely wound a man while on your back, stomach, etc. if you have a gun, a knife or many other objects.

In our legal system, it doesn't matter what the suspect actually had on him, whether it be a bomb, a knife, a gun, or thin air. What matters is what the officers believed (and could reasonably believe) at the time of the incident.

That same standard applies to normal law abiding citizens too when they feel they or others are at risk of serious bodily injury or death at the hands of another.

So to clarify, if you are not involved in the commission of a crime at the time of the incident, and you believe - and can reasonably come to that belief as determined by a court of law - that someone is an imminent threat to cause serious bodily injury or death to yourself or someone else, that person is a legitimate shoot target.

Additionally, you can kill a man with nothing more than your own two hands given the correct circumstances. The rules of the cinematic wild west do not apply to the laws of this country. There's nothing even remotely dishonorable about shooting an unarmed man if he's in position to cause serious bodily injury or death to someone.

So for the incident I referred to, investigators will seek to determine what actually happened AND what the officers could reasonably believe at the time. If they could not reasonably believe that the man was an imminent threat to cause serious bodily injury or death, then they will almost certainly face charges. However, if they could reasonably believe this, they will be exonerated.

But the public as a whole always wants to jump to some foolish conclusion without having all of the facts and details of the incident. But that is not how justice works.

Cops that engage in bad shoots do get charged. The South Carolina officer from last year is one such example. These other officers that have gotten into high profile shootings that didn't get charged, or got acquitted of charges, acted within the bounds of their training and the confines of the law.

If you have an issue with this, then your problem is with the laws of the United States and the universal police training methods, not the officers.

See, the obvious solution is to give everyone swords instead. It'll give weapon nuts something to hold on to, and people will be able to put up more of a fight for things. There's Kevlar armor around these days, so it's much less lethal, and it's just a damn cool phallic symbol, just like guns are. You can run away from swords, true, but that just means we need to invent scarier tasers.

As a Texan this hit a little close to home for me, it's hard to even really comment on it right now, I'm angry and sickened and it's all anyone's been talking about all day.

Though as bad as this was I suppose it might've been even worse. Ex-army guy who 'wanted to kill white people' and was perfectly willing to let a crowd of protesters get caught in the crossfire, with 'bomb-making materials, ballistic vests, rifles, ammunition and a personal journal of combat tactics' in his apartment, that could've been a recipe for a far worse tragedy. What happened with those men being shot by completely difference police in completely different states and whatever the verdict there will turn out to be is barely even a factor here, this guy was a lunatic and sooner or later was going to wind up on the news.  

And I'm with Kiel on this one, use MLK for an example, but not Gandhi. Gandhi was a dick. 

Anyway, the whole thing was chaotic enough that news reports were worse than usual, I heard so many conflicting reports about this all day, including that there were multiple snipers and the main one killed himself.

 

Yeah, I live a few hours away from Dallas. My friends were on lockdown, it was scary.

 

Fellow Dallas person, I give you a thorough pat on the back. I experienced the same thing. 

Apparently the sniper was killed by a "bomb robot". Skynet is coming

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/07/08/dallas-police-used-a-robot-to-deliver-bomb-that-killed-shooting-suspect/

Yeah, I read that. This morning the details of the story were all over the place though.

The whole thing is even sadder when you consider that up until the shooting started, the whole event was apparently so peaceful that police were posing for pictures with protesters. Something positive that could've brought about more understanding and respect on both sides of the issue in that community gets turned into a massacre instead. 

I'm sure it's awesome for the black folks who thought they had problems before to know the cops'll be going around 10x more scared and twitchy on the trigger finger now, too... 

I get what you're saying, but technical expansion...

Trigger finger twitch isn't a thing for police officers. The finger never goes on the trigger until it's time to pull the go switch. They keep it indexed just below the slide. Though, that's the exact reason they do that. Any sudden noise or surprise will cause your body to flinch and pull the trigger if your finger is just resting on it.

Only thugs hold a gun with their finger on the trigger before they're ready to fire. Just like how law abiding citizens use holsters and gangbangers carry them in their waste-band.

I bet gangbangers accidentally shoot themselves in the dick a lot.

https://twitter.com/allisongriz/status/751234755882995713

I'm a little late catching up on the details so this probably made the rounds already, but a couple in an apartment or something near the shooting made cellphone videos where you could hear the shots very clearly. Almost funny in a morbid way how all these reporters immediately jump on them 'hi that sounds terrible I hope you're okay CAN MY NEWS STATION USE THIS????'

I tweeted this on my twitter too. It's so fuckin scary

I read a book written by the undercover FBI guy that they made the movie Donnie Brasco about. He mentioned that most "wise guys" don't seem to be all that great of marksmen despite them carrying guns around all the time and using them frequently.

Hence why there are a lot of botched hits or when they are successful, the people are often riddled with bullets. I guess it also makes sense that they tend to hire all these professional hitmen when they REALLY want someone taken out.

I saw that earlier today. Can't help but wonder, 'Why are you idiots on the roof and not cowering inside like a sane person?' Away from the windows.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-7EVIGsAmU

I remember the Freddy Grey riots here in Baltimore last year.....Good times.

I think one of the largest problems right now are the police training. They used to be taught that the civilian's and/or criminal's llife was more important than their own. Now they have the idea that "They must get home to their wife and kids tonight no matter what" drilled into them. This is making them act more irrationally than they used to and as a result, some of them end up shooting innocents for no reason.

What alternate reality are you from where police were taught the life of the person they were arresting was more important than their own safety or that of the other people around? It sounds like a very silly place.

Sort of an interesting little aside to all this, another forum I was reading has been following the story of one of the people at the protest.

 

Can't remember his name right off, posters were mostly referring to him as Open Carry Nigga.

He started getting texts about how for SOME REASON his picture was being shown with him described as a suspect, so his friends convinced him to hand his gun over to a police officer.

https://twitter.com/MikeLeslieWFAA/status/751292548258209793

Unfortunately the news kept reporting him as a suspect and he eventually had to go to the police again to get in straightened out. This is where the 'second suspect turns himself in' stuff was coming from. He is understandably kind of pissed now, but still, I feel congratulations are in order on not getting shot while being a black guy in a camo shirt running around with a rifle while someone is shooting at police.

This is why having multiple  guns in an active shooter scenario is fucking retarded. 

It seems that even with compliance, black people are still treated as criminals. This man wasn't breaking the law, but the PD themselves can't even distinguish between suspect and person of interest at this point. This is the problem I have with this and Philando Castile. The NRA are hypocrites and the Second Amendment seems to have a 'Only white people need apply' condition or something. Just my opinion.

Errr I think when a situation suddenly erupts into a warzone, it's just common sense to see a guy running around holding around a gun as someone who might potentially be involved. Open carry is fucking retarded. Someone walks into a grocery store with a rifle like that while you're doing your shopping, there's literally no way to distinguish between a person who's just taking their ridiculously oversized gun out for a walk versus someone who's an actual threat until it's too late.

Philando Castile's killing has been ruled a homicide, and the circumstances are completely different from this situation and also different from Alton Sterling's death. In general, I just wish people who think of "The Police" or "The NRA" or any "The Blacks" or any other group as some kind of hive mind were able to step back and realize these are individuals and that it's pretty messed up lashing out at or demonizing and dehumanizing a whole group because of the actions of a few; especially when that's in fact the exact same thing they're angrily accusing the other side of doing. This is what so many of the issues going on in the world right now seem to stem from, actually.  

The media does not help. They just went and ran with the idea of the open carry guy being a suspect long after it had been disproved, they've been trying to frame Castile's shooting as a black vs white race issue (Jenonimo Yanez is the name of white person since when?) and it's all too obvious just reading the wording of some of the reports released how often their goal is to sensationalize and fan the flames. It feels really irresponsible.   

 

     

There's a difference between suspect and person of interest. Of course I acknowledge that carrying a gun around for all to see is just plain stupid. But it's not breaking the law.

Depends where you are: e.g. Illegal in Philly.

EDIT: For clarity: Without a license.

EDIT II: Open carry still is a poor idea.

LOL go die in a fire, bitch.

One built out of dictionaries, I hope.

And now I'm thoroughly disgusted. "I don’t feel sad for the officers that lost their lives — and I know that that’s really not my heart," well, apparently it is.