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Important Writing Question

7 months ago

Finally a writing question that all CYSers can answer!

https://www.quora.com/In-fiction-can-my-hero-be-a-former-rapist

Discuss!

Important Writing Question

7 months ago

My own answer is yes, but I think a bigger challenge is to write a hero that’s a current rapist.

Important Writing Question

7 months ago
Oh, for sure. But I think there's a niche audience that would have no problem reading about a protagonist that only rapes other rapists though.

Pro Tip: You will not find that audience on Cog.

Important Writing Question

7 months ago
Somebody needs to take that article to COG and see what their feelings are on the matter.

Important Writing Question

7 months ago
Even posed as innocently as possible - Hey, I found this question (link), thoughts? - would probably result in a 200 year ban.

Okay, so who wants to be the site guinea pig this time? @digit ; @seto ; @WouldntItBeNice

Important Writing Question

7 months ago

Can't be Seto, he's already serving 200 to Life there.

Important Writing Question

7 months ago
Do they do IP bans like real people?

Important Writing Question

7 months ago

I run a proxy like 24/7 so even if they IP ban, can sneak right back in.

Important Writing Question

7 months ago
I think we have a volunteer.

Important Writing Question

7 months ago

But they'll bully me again :(

They hurt my poor feelings last time when I asked a question and got tossed very quickly into prison. For two hundred years.

Important Writing Question

7 months ago
No thanks. Never made an account over there, never will.

Important Writing Question

7 months ago
What are you afraid of?

I have an account there, it's good for writing chat sometimes if you can dodge the topics that get threads derailed and locked because they have the emotional maturity of perpetually outraged toddlers.

Important Writing Question

7 months ago
As you well know, my judgement is not always the best in what should or should not be said. Plus, I wouldn't want to be banned and later want to join as a member (for writing discussions).

Important Writing Question

7 months ago
Only if he raped evil people, bonus if he still does.

I can name three hentai heroes who are also rapists right of the bat

Important Writing Question

7 months ago
Easier to pull off in fantasy or in historical or dystopian fiction IMO. People expect modern protags to have at least somewhat modern sensibilities to be relateable, unless you're just going full on villain as protagonist sort of thing or someone entirely dysfunctional.

Well, many people now expect all protagonists no matter where they're coming from to be paragons of modern day first world social sensitivity and justice and would rather 'problematic' subjects not be included in fiction at all (can't have fiction creating emotions or troubling thoughts! That's not what it's for!) but, those people are idiots.

E: Actually, misread the question a bit so disregard what I said about modern settings. Former rapist is easy to do if we're going by current definitions of rape. Actual violent or intentional rape is tougher to do but I could see it happening if the protag had a history as a gang member or in prison or is from a shithole country or was just an idiot teenager...really a lot of possibilities there.

Important Writing Question

7 months ago

Wuthering Heights was a shitty book for desperate housewives written by an even more pathetic housewife, and since it's an example in what you asked us to discuss, this counts as what you asked for. Shitty, fuck awful book with no substance behind its weak attempt at a story.

Important Writing Question

7 months ago

Okay, so also related:

Recently was reading one of those “RPG Horror Story” sessions, and the setting was one where Nazis took over the world.

One guy was playing some pansexual Jewish dude in the resistance and he would go out of his way to rape Nazis that they captured and would go into graphic detail about how he was violating them and chopping them up, etc. Generally torture/rape porn level I guess. Made the dude telling the story uncomfortable. For whatever reason, he didn’t rape Nazi women, just the men since I guess that would be “too far.” (And something about needing to emasculate the men via RAPE)

Anyway, the tipping point was the character raping one of the guard dogs as part of the torture which at that point the guy fled the table and never played with them again.

Now with this example, is the character still a hero? (Obviously the real person playing said character is a degenerate living out some gay power fantasy, but that’s a different subject)

Important Writing Question

7 months ago
Not a hero, far too sexist. He literally considers dogs to have more moral agency than women it would appear.

Important Writing Question

7 months ago
Nah, the character is just another degenerate too.

Important Writing Question

7 months ago
Like I said in the chat, this sort of reminded me that I have a bunch of short stories in collections from those old Fantasy & Science fiction magazines. And damn did authors back then love their rape.

I wouldn't have time now but at once point I was considering transcribing a few for the forum. (Before I remembered that none of you like to read.) I mean, not BECAUSE of the rape, but there's a lot of obscure hack work from authors who went on to be famous that I'm not sure can be found anywhere else.

Important Writing Question

7 months ago
Please do this.

Important Writing Question

7 months ago

I don't get why rape in entertainment is so taboo. 

There are plenty of attempted murder victims but nobody's pausing to show murder for their sake.

Important Writing Question

7 months ago

If it's done well, I guess so.

As long as the story isn't just the protagonist raping people, thinking about people they raped in the past, and rape in general.

Important Writing Question

7 months ago
I mean it really depends on the audience too. You could write that story, slap it on a porn site, and have it be lauded as a masterpiece. Add some rudimentary game elements and make everyone a pansexual furry with three rows of DD tits and a 15 inch dong and watch the money roll in. (You get to count it all in Hell.)

Important Writing Question

7 months ago

It should be. Totally. You know how much money they could make? Make that bank, son! Open up a Patreon and profit off the sickness of the masses. Feed the children who will nourish you in turn. Use that money to donate to rape relief charity. 

Important Writing Question

7 months ago

Seems like there's a lot of places a story like that could go.

Important Writing Question

7 months ago

Why not!

Is it a moral quandary? I like to draw picture on mspaint of anime character murdering each other and vaping during lectures, and I've never taken up the lifestyle of a murdering vapist. People do it all the time in fanfiction. It's an entire kink. They could make money off of this! Oh my God! They should become a crappy light novel author and profit off of a really niche genre involving sympathetic non-con and make that bank. We should follow in example.

Important Writing Question

2 months ago

Well some people had a BIG argument in Mizal's Discord about writing rape in a story and if it was bad or not.

Axiom said it was bad, but said you could go ahead and do it. Malk sided with her.

Coins was pro-rape and stuck to his guns about currently writing his pro-rape story. Looking forward to reading it.

Since I didn't bother back reading, I'm not sure if Steve weighed in on this topic, but the general consensus was that he'd argue with Axiom and be a douchebag whether he was actually pro-rape or not.

Also defined tasteful rape as writing rape in such a way that its important to the plot/story and not for shock value. Mizal's Date Rape story is the best example of this.

Important Writing Question

2 months ago
I still love the answer linked in the OP. "A Dexter-type approach would not work for rape."

Confessing now I've never actually watched Dexter but my understanding is that would be about a rapist going around raping rapists?

Hell, I'd read it.

I also hope that Coins' pro-rape story does well, perhaps his passion for rape will finally be the motivation he needs to realize his full potential.

Potential for what, I don't know.

Important Writing Question

2 months ago

What was anyone's reason for not writing about rape?

Important Writing Question

2 months ago

Axiom said something about it being unnecessary and exploitative and ultimately you shouldn’t write anything deliberately triggering unless you’re attempting to explore a deeper meaning behind it rather than writing “RAPE LOL.”

I think she also said something about it being a lazy way of making bad guys seem even worse and something about a lot of female readers that are going to find it off putting. She also went into some feminist stuff along with media violence being bad in general.

Oh and it makes you look like an edgelord.

Or if you are going to write that sort of thing, you should just say “I don’t give a shit who I offend. RAPE LOL.” and be done with it.

Which is ultimately what coins should have just said when he was writing his pro-rape story in the first place.

Important Writing Question

2 months ago

Ugh, that's retarded. By that standard, why write about characters who torture or abused? It's offensive to those who've been through that. You might as well just bar off any immoral actions being portrayed and waste the majority of literature because you think that something becomes unnecessary just because it's a dark and disturbing topic. 

Important Writing Question

2 months ago
True it's just necessary sometimes, for instance how can you tell a bad guy is bad unless they rape someone the main character cares about

Important Writing Question

2 months ago

I'm clearly not saying that you have to rely on rape. But if the bad guy is capable of doing anything that causes harm to anyone, or anything that could offend something or be unnecessary, you're severely limiting the medium.

Important Writing Question

2 months ago
I understand that argument, as I've seen plenty of bad authors do exactly that. Personally I have the same issue with excessive gore though. If a story is badly written and the "edginess" contributes nothing to the characters or plot, it comes off like a middle schooler screaming "Look, sex and violence! Look how mature I am!" That, however, does not mean that those subjects cannot be done well. I feel like a lot of people hate it for the same reason people here hate Warrior Cats. Yes, in theory, somebody could write an engaging and powerful story revolving around magical kittens... but there's so much crap out there that the subject becomes distasteful in and of itself.

I think it can be used as a cheap tactic and is quite frequently, but I have no issue with it from a moral/writing standpoint if it's done well.

Important Writing Question

2 months ago
So what you're trying to say is that you're pretty contemptuous of anything written by Endmaster, Steve, or Malk.

No need to dance around that, just come out with it, it's okay.

Important Writing Question

2 months ago
Not particularly. I enjoy a lot of Endmaster's material. I don't really care for Steve's writing style, but I hold no contempt for his work. Hell, he's got more experience and is likely a better author than I am.
As for Malk, I can't really say anything as I haven't read anything from him recently aside from forum posts.

Important Writing Question

2 months ago

I'll tear out your womb and feed it to you, you bitch.

Important Writing Question

2 months ago
Honestly dude, go for it. I was dumb enough to enter a contest while going to school full-time and having two jobs (and a concussion). I deserve death at this point.

Important Writing Question

2 months ago

Just to be clear; this story has rape in it but is not "pro-rape" in any way. 

Important Writing Question

2 months ago

As long as it adds to the story, it should be fine. It's not something I would personally put in a story.

Important Writing Question

2 months ago

I meant to bring this up when he died, but this rape thread seems like a good place to do it since it has something to do with womyn and aggressive breeding practices.

If you’re familiar with A Boy and His Dog, its basically a post apocalyptic story about a protagonist going about trying to survive with his telepathic dog. Along the way he also isn’t above trying to rape women in the process. He’s not exactly a villain protagonist, but he’s definitely not a hero.

In any case, he encounters a woman that he’s trying to get some sex from and gets into a whole wacky adventure with her since she leads him to some fucked up underground society where they want to milk his man juices to create more babies. (They hook him up to a machine rather than the old fashioned fun way)

Eventually he escapes with the girl who has a change of heart and makes it back to the surface. Though his dog has been waiting faithfully on the surface is starving to death and he needs food.

The protagonist, not wishing to have his dog die he kills the girl and feeds her to the dog.

Now in the book the last bit has the protagonist reflecting on his hard choice and wondering about his fee fees and he’s remembering her earlier question “Do you know what love is?” and the answer is “A boy loves his dog.”

Yes, yes, very thoughtful.

Of course in the movie, they went for a joke instead, and while the protagonist is talking to his dog about how it wasn’t his fault that the girl fell in love with him and then the dog says something like she had good judgement, but not particularly good taste. And then they laugh while walking into the sunset.

Yes, yes, very amusing.

Cheap bad jokes aside, the author Harlan Ellison HATED this change in dialogue, which he ended up calling hateful, moronic and chauvinistic.

Um, what?

Okay I get as a writer, him getting pissed about any changes to his original vision, that’s natural, but apparently other than that line he didn’t mind the movie.

What I never understood is why he got so pissy about the last jokey line being "hateful towards women" when this was a guy who wrote about a protagonist that had no problems with sexual assault to get his rocks off and ultimately killed a woman to feed his dog.

How the fuck was the story NOT sexist to begin with if we’re going by the whole “progressive” mindset?

In any case Harlan was routinely an asshole towards women (well everyone really), so just never understood his stance on that minor thing.

Important Writing Question

2 months ago
>How the fuck was the story NOT sexist to begin with if we’re going by the whole “progressive” mindset?

Really I don't think many stories written prior to the late/mid 90s can pass muster, especially genre stuff like fantasy and sci-fi. The whole attitude of 'rape should never be mentioned, ever, in any context' is a pretty recent one. Hell there's been plenty of stuff where the protagonist themselves is a rapist so Harlan's not really alone there even though he is a more legendary asshole than most of his contemporaries.

Don't really have time to make an effort post here but while writing often does and should tackle things that may make readers strongly feel negative emotions, but the problem people have with rAeP it particular is how often a subject that genuinely disturbs people and may continue to long after they stop reading is thrown in for shock value or used as a crutch because the writer can't be bothered to think of anything else. It's cheap and manipulative. Maybe someone like Steve would understand better if tons of fiction contained unnecessary scenes of a protagonist's puppy being tortured in place of all the raped girlfriends.

But I still wouldn't tell anyone NOT to include it so much as just that they should stop and ask themselves why they are and if they really need to and if it's something that tonally fits their story in the first place. It's just one of those subjects that people feel Very Strongly about and it's pretty easy to fuck up and will likely lead to you pissing someone off even if you're trying your best to handle it sensitively. (If pissing people off is your goal, obviously disregard this.)

Important Writing Question

2 months ago

Oh by the way, recently realized I pretty much have at least one rape scene or implication of rape in all but one of my stories.

So I figure I'm doing something right.

Important Writing Question

2 months ago
But how many stories do you have a guy cooking hot dogs on the opposite side of the street of a slaughterhouse and an animal cruelty protest?

Important Writing Question

2 months ago

Sadly, I will never excel in the animal cruelty department so I have to make up all my edgelord points with all the other stuff instead.

Important Writing Question

2 months ago
We all have our weaknesses.

Important Writing Question

2 months ago

I've played Necromancer and Death Song and don't remember rape in either one.

Important Writing Question

2 months ago

Those ones are more on the "mentioned in passing" scale.

Death Song has a scene where some demons just got finished raping and killing some folks and talking about it before the bard stumbles on them when he's fleeing the first major conflict at Aftermath.

In Necromancer, well that's sort of how his father met his mother. He just fucked up and fell in love. I mean I've gotten a direct complaint about that one in the comment section (Right up there with lesbians complaining about the rug munching reference).

Not to mention it's mentioned that before he met her, his Chimera Company was a whole lot worse with the whole pillaging and raping bit.

In any case I'm counting them since at least a few members labor under the belief that I'm gleefully writing stories with rape scene after rape scene. I'd hate to ruin such an image.

Important Writing Question

2 months ago

what about counter-rape?  if someone is raping you, and you jiu jitsu yourself out of it, and then you start raping them in retaliation, is that illegal? is it immoral? 

Important Writing Question

2 months ago

It's hot

Important Writing Question

2 months ago

It is in fact illegal.

Important Writing Question

2 months ago
It would really have changed that one scene in The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo.