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A place to sit back, hang out, and make monkey noises about anything you'd like.

This is among best communities on the internet

27 days ago

Don't get me wrong, this place is filled with degenerates and overall it's a pretty hostile and unwelcoming place. But at least it's honest. Everywhere that tries to be "welcoming" and "inclusive" always ends up as a Stepford Smiler nightmare where anyone with the slightest trace of independent thought gets hidden, removed and blocked (at best) or just straight up deleted at worst (I am not going to mention the names of any website here, except Reddit of course). "Oh we want you to talk about your FEEELINGGGGSS...unless they challenge our worldview or make us feel uncomfortable, in which case you're BANNED." There's none of that here, you still get mocked and called "cancer" for being a My Little Pony fan, for example, just like the good old days of the fandom when every forum treated you like that. It's how the internet ought to be honestly.

This is among best communities on the internet

27 days ago

This is among best communities on the internet

27 days ago

My thoughts exactly!

This is among best communities on the internet

27 days ago
Shut up, faggot

This is among best communities on the internet

27 days ago

Not to be too gay or anything, but it really is.

Brony degenerate.

This is among best communities on the internet

26 days ago
We even let Turks bumble around in here

This is among best communities on the internet

27 days ago

Feelings are gay and you're gay for saying it, fag.

This is among best communities on the internet

27 days ago
I used to be on a site for regular stories before I got really into IF. It was the first place I put up any serious attempts at writing on the internet, and I always feel like I owe a lot to the very thorough and very brutal reviews I got. They drew my attention to things like dialogue punctuation, as well as some pretty damn important aspects of storycraft like pacing and protagonist agency, and how lame and gay the passive voice is. Then I wandered off for a couple of years, and when I returned it had become this godawful pit of normies writing maudlin poetry and poorly punctuated, 600 word "chapters", and blocking anyone who dared give them any real criticism or any rating less than an 8/10. It was a very sad and bad realization for me. And we will burn this site down with all of you still trapped inside if we must someday to prevent a similar fate. :) Of course even that was many years ago. From what I've seen it seems like most communities for "creativity" have only gotten stricter and more oppressive about enforcing phony positivity as a matter of policy rather than just culture. Anyway, I'm curious if there was something specific that prompted this, but you have correctly identified CYS as the best. I don't really think it's accurate to say we call people cancer for being obsessed with MLP though; we call people cancer for a lot of things. (Although I am frankly not willing to commit to a list, I don't like to limit myself that way.)

This is among best communities on the internet

27 days ago

"Anyway, I'm curious if there was something specific that prompted this"

A series of factors over the last year. I used to think I wanted everyone to just be nice to each other and get along, but then when online forums actually started enforcing this, not only was it fake and forced, but the MOMENT these forums found something or someone they were allowed to hate by the mob, they would go absolutely nuts and eagerly talk about the nastiest and most depraved things. And then if someone tries to talk them down, all their fire gets turned on them and it's not pretty; the sudden 180 shifts are really disturbing. Whereas at least when I come to this place, it's going to be consistent. ("A dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest...it's the honest ones you've got to watch out for")

And further, I remember back in the days when the brony community was absolutely pummeled, insulted and torn down at every possible moment. The result was that only people who REALLY loved the series would get involved, and didn't care about clout chasing or being respected. The result was that there was a great number of wonderful fan animations, music and remixes and all sorts of things made ONLY by and for people who loved the series and no one else. So the endless tirades of hatred and slander scared the normies and the fake fans away, meaning that in a sense, the brony fandom, and all of the wonderful things it made, owes its entire existence to the haters. Now that people have gotten used to them on most of the internet, the community is a shell of its former self. Or, in the words of JRR Tolkien, "And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.”

So all the costs of trying to force everyone to "be nice" to each other all the time are just not worth it, and end up making the world a worse place for no good reason.

This is among best communities on the internet

27 days ago
Interesting topic :)

I think this is a good point: CYS is a pretty unique site and I think the mods do a really great job of letting people have the freedom to honestly express their opinions, even if those opinions are controversial (and occasionally, only semi-literate) and only really clamping down on those obviously trolling. I don’t go on the forums much but I always feel comfortable chilling and writing on this site because the creativity is not crushed by a plethora of Fascist rules, relentlessly and tediously enforced by God-complex-disguising-inferiority-complex admins, and I do feel that the interactions and feedback on here are completely honest. I’ve never bothered to actually go on another writing site and have no idea what they are like but I've read enough trashings of IF by End and lots of other writers to take them at face value. Like anywhere on the internet you sometimes need to have to have a thick skin here but I think fluttershy is right when he says this place has a really great community.

This is among best communities on the internet

26 days ago

I know this is really the most important point, but you are fundamentally misreading that bit from The Silmarillion.  Tolkien would have wholly disagreed with your contention that if evil inevitably ends up bending to create good that therefore, there's no reason to fight for good, or or that therefore it wasn't evil in the first place.  That would be like arguing that there was no reason to fight Morgoth, because without Morgoth, we don't have the beautiful narrative of Beren and Lúthien.  

Whether this has anything to do with being nice in an online context, I haven't the faintest idea. 

This is among best communities on the internet

24 days ago

Then perhaps you will see this quote will be more suitable: 

"Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great). [The draft ends here. In the margin Tolkien wrote: 'Thus while Sauron multiplied [illegible word] evil, he left "good" clearly distinguishable from it. Gandalf would have made good detestable and seem evil.]"

 

Tolkien Letter No. 246

This is among best communities on the internet

24 days ago
Don't argue with Gower about Tolkien, retard.

Saying Sauron was "not as bad" as Gandalf would've been still isn't saying what Sauron did was beneficial, this doesn't even help your argument.

This is among best communities on the internet

24 days ago

I used that letter because I was making a slightly different point that time around,in order not to waste everyone's time with a great, long, pointless argument, but if you want evidence of the first argument, that evil is actually beneficial in Tolkien's world, there's a second quote here which reads:

“[Ilúvatar: ] 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.'

J.R.R. Tolkien, The Silmarillion."

This really is a central theme in Tolkien's stories, that evil exists and is permitted by Eru Illuvatar because attempted acts of rebellion against good actually improve the world. So to use Gower's own example, the fact that Melkor's rule lead to the tale of Beren and Luthien is, in fact, why Melkor was allowed to exist and believe himself to be "rebelling" against Illuvatar. This doesn't mean you ought not fight against evil, of course, (Beren and Luthien were literally attempting to thwart Morgoth, which is the key point of the tale), and in fact fighting against evil is part of the "divine plan" which leads to the world being a better place. This is such a significant theme that literally the whole story of The Lord Of The Rings is decided by this point; Gollum's "selfish" desire to take the Ring for himself is what leads to the Ring being destroyed; yet again, an "evil" action ends up being "beneficial". Further, as if this point needed to be hammered home any further, Tolkien says about the Orcs in Letter 153 "Because by accepting or tolerating their making – necessary to their actual existence – even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good." I actually have much more evidence than that but I don't think anyone will be convinced who isn't already.

CS Leiws has some thoughts on this same subject in The Great Divorce, but this has gone on far longer than I intended.

This is why I try to argue as little as possible online, because it always ends up with me making some absurdly long and overly detailed response to a very short argument, and then other people start joining in with more and more of these one-line arguments that need in-depth responses and it all ends up being mildly frustrating. In fact I think this is perhaps the most sinister thing about everywhere on the internet, how it manages to rip everything up into tiny little pieces, much like how Saruman the Many Coloured pulls the same trick on light, tearing it apart, or "cutting open the ball to find its bounce", as Tolkien quoted someone else in one of his letters. It's a pointless and ultimately nihlistic enterprise.

This is among best communities on the internet

24 days ago
I once had salmonella too when I was young

This is among best communities on the internet

24 days ago
Arguing with Gower about Tolkien is like arguing with Malk about the ancient Middle East, what a terrible error you have made. It's like showing up at Rivendell and trying to WELL ACKSHUALLY at Elrond. The only thing you have going for you here is that Gower is too image conscious to call you a retard.

Which is a real shame, I would love to see a vegetarian hair pulling contest.

This is among best communities on the internet

24 days ago
I would happily sling vile slurs in Gower's stead

This is among best communities on the internet

23 days ago
Commended by Mizal on 5/24/2024 5:43:48 AM

I don't think anyone who has read the texts would disagree with your major points, but what I'm lifting an eyebrow at is the difference between "evil is actually beneficial" and "evil ends up leading to good things in the end through grace."  The first of those claims is something Saruman would argue from the top of Orthanc. 

You mention that "evil exists and is permitted by Eru Illuvatar because attempted acts of rebellion against good actually improve the world."   Evil cannot create, only destroy and distort, in Tolkien's works.  Evil cannot be beneficial in and of itself.  It's a small difference that I'm pointing to, but I think it's particularly important here. 

Evil inevitably consumes itself, Ungoliant-style, and wonderfully, good comes in to fill the hole evil leaves and reveals divinity's beautiful pattern.  The beauty and joy and divine light of the Silmaril on Eärendil's ship in the night sky doesn't make The Oath of Fëanor not have been a terrible evil in the first place.  So all I'm really noting is that a bad thing can be productive (through grace) of good, but not good to have been.  It's an interesting and subtle distinction, and it's not super relevant to the analogy you were using anyhow, but I think what I'm trying to say is that The Silmarillion is really good, you guys.

 

This is among best communities on the internet

23 days ago

Arda Renewed, that is, the world after its ultimate destruction and renewal, is the greatest of all possible worlds, and such a world is only possible through the marring of Arda in the first place. If it were possible, by our understanding of the word, to create the greatest of all possible worlds without first having the Marring of Arda by Morgoth and his ilk, then Eru would have just created the world as Renewed to begin with. This is why the Second Music Of The Ainur, with the voices of the Children of Illuvatar, is greater than the First, with the Ainur only, because the men and elves (and dwarves, perhaps?) have gone through a world in which evil has come into into, now that they're on the other side and evil has been destroyed forever, they can make a world that wasn't even conceived of prior.  Evil in Tolkien does not permanently stain Creation (although admittedly it does require the entire erasure of Arda Marred to remove Melkor's stain), nor is it a neutral force upon the world that makes the world no more or less beautiful after its renewal. Morgoth's rebellion failed so utterly that, in the end, it wasn't merely impotent: it outright backfired. Therefore, it does evil-doers no credit that the world becomes better through grace.

"Evil cannot be beneficial in and of itself."

I absolutely agree with this, in fact, evil cannot really exist in and of itself, since it's inherently parasitic and corruptive, and of course you need something good to exist in order to be corrupted in the first place. I suppose a more comprehensive way of framing it would be that good's reaction to (and ultimate defeat of) evil is what makes the world a better place than it was prior, rather than evil in and of itself making the world a better place. 

 

TL DR: Arda Renewed > Arda Unmarred

This is among best communities on the internet

23 days ago
If evil ain't good, then why the fuck is it so fun?

This is among best communities on the internet

23 days ago

Addendum: Giving this a bit more thought, you seem to have perceived my argument as being that evil exists as an enhancement to the thing itself, whereas your rebuttal is that it is not additive to the thing itself but merely enhances the perception of the thing itself. If this is the case, then this discussion will quickly turn from a Tolkienian one to a Kantian one, and I don't think we'll be getting anywhere with that. Suffice it to say that I am still unsure where lies the distinction between "perception of the thing itself" and "the thing itself", and therefore will not be making any claims one way or the other, nor did I intend to to begin with.

This is among best communities on the internet

24 days ago
What the fuck is this shit

This is among best communities on the internet

24 days ago

A pointless and nihilistic enterprise.

This is among best communities on the internet

27 days ago
Good opinion. At least it's not lying to us and trying to be welcoming.

This is among best communities on the internet

27 days ago
I mean, I agree. I don't even think I really like IF over regular fiction, but where else on the internet is there a good writing community? I haven't found one, or really had the urge to look. Despite the jokes that no one reads, you'll get more people reading your stuff here than on any random cesspool like wattpad, especially if you engage with the community.

This is among best communities on the internet

25 days ago

Shut up fatty 

This is among best communities on the internet

26 days ago
this BILL BILL BILL BILL BILL needs more waha

This is among best communities on the internet

25 days ago

I think it's quite nice.

This is among best communities on the internet

25 days ago

CYS is the greatest community ever to commune, and we should have mandatory allegiance threads with 100% participation on pain of banishment. However, I gotta say, I have never seen a thread like this in Lounge  that wasn't super gay. 

This is among best communities on the internet

23 days ago
Commended by EndMaster on 5/24/2024 6:36:34 PM

I'm just here cause I am deeply homophobic.