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POV modes

28 days ago
Generally, it makes sense that most of the stories written on this forum are written in second person, referring to the reader as the main player. However, I am curious if it is possible to make a story written from a different perspective in a way that doesn't feel off-putting. Third person and first person are probably not preferred in general simply because it would seem like you're making choices for another person which they have control over, which I guess could be considered a form of Calvinism. As far as it goes, I am an amateur writer and am not a terribly good writer, so anything experimental would be a challenge for me, but I wonder if you guys have any thoughts on this concept.

POV modes

28 days ago
I think third person works perfectly fine. I find second person to be fun myself, especially because this is one of the only mediums you can use it in, but third person isn't bad. First person might be challenging, but it should be fine.

POV modes

28 days ago
Hmm... What about first person makes it more difficult than, say, third person? I have never seen anyone try to write a story in first person with this medium. The concept sounds challenging, but there might be a way to fix the break of immersion of controlling a character who you either are forced to identify as, but presumably you aren't necessarily in "full control" either. One thing that breaks immersion for me when I'm playing a normal game in second person is that the character you're supposed to identify as has thoughts that aren't your own, and judges things according to their personality characteristics.

POV modes

28 days ago
  1. Yes there are stories which were written using the the first person POV in the interactive fiction medium, just not here (haven't been able to encounter one yet at least). Either bite-size Twine "games" or some unfinished demo using other engines. 
  2. I don't understand your point on "One thing that breaks immersion for me when I'm playing a normal game in second person is that the character you're supposed to identify as has thoughts that aren't your own, and judges things according to their personality characteristics."? When you read, it is you who is supposed to empathize and try to explore/understand the character you are playing as. Otherwise you are treating the character as an..... what was the word they use.... Right! "Self-inserted OC". 

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27 days ago
I'm currently working on a first-person story adventure game, and I hope it turns out alright.

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27 days ago
Second person has been the standard for interactive fiction for as long at it existed (about fifty years now). The MC is "you" in the same way as when you play a lot of other games or in roleplaying especially. You're taking on the role of someone else, and the narrator as the DM is describing (or in a visual game, displaying) the events that need reacting to. It is not and has never has pretended to be about "you", the nerd slumped in a computer chair. Frankly, no one would want to read about that.

Third person is the standard for novels and movies of course, but in IF it always feels a little too distancing for me. The narrator is gong on about the thoughts and actions of a third person, and the reader is just sort of this disembodied force. Which is fine in a medium where you're going in prepared to merely observe, but I'm not sure of the purpose to the extra degree of separation when the idea is that you're supposed to be getting actively involved.

First person on the other hand has the opposite problem for me, it always feels claustrophobic and like there's not enough room for nuance. Being told every observation and thought is coming directly from "you" in fact without even a narrator to mediate, actually I have no idea why that doesn't bother you for the same reasons you say second person does.

Really makes death endings awkward to write as well, and fully limits the scope of the game to things observable by one set of eyes.

As for your original question, whether something you write is "offputting" really depends on you as a writer.

POV modes

27 days ago

It still uses you because it's the dragon narrating what you are doing though

And you missed the point that yes, a skilled author could write a cyoa well in any pov. You however I doubt.

What's the point of coming here and bitching about povs, rather than taking time to write as a proof of concept. Or better yet just write your story and publish it when it's done. No one wants to hear your whining in the meantime 

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27 days ago

Corgi got so mad that he responded to the wrong guy lol 

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27 days ago

Weird considering the first sentence is actually directed at the right person

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27 days ago

You literally have a problem with the three main writing povs

I wish you'd shut the fuck up

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27 days ago

Calvinism is a hilarious way of putting it but it's true. Steering characters from a third person POV makes you feel like some kind of weird malevolent demiurge and I don't think it often gets pulled off successfully. I've never written a third person CYS game that didn't feel kind of clumsy. 

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27 days ago
*BARK BARK BARK BARK*

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27 days ago
Third person gives the author more flexibility, but that can be a bad thing, as they're now responsible for the universe. This view does allow the author to more effectively show things that are happening off screen, as first- and second-person do not really allow that.

While yes, most IF does end up being second-person, for me the limiting factor is the story and character. If *I*, as the reader, need to be the character, then the character has to be at least similar to me. If the story says, "You look down at your boobs," that really breaks me out of the story because I don't have boobs. Third person is a nice way around that because the character can look at their own boobs and I can imagine that character doing so.

But as you will see, most readers of IF prefer the second-person view, and it certainly is the most common.

POV modes

26 days ago

If *I*, as the reader, need to be the character, then the character has to be at least similar to me. If the story says, "You look down at your boobs," that really breaks me out of the story because I don't have boobs.

If you can imagine yourself as a character that isn't 100% you...then you can imagine yourself as a girl...that also means you can imagine you have boobs...

the character can look at their own boobs and I can imagine that character doing so.

Ah yes...because the other character is someone who is real who is completely seperate from you. I don't know about you, but when I play a 2nd pov storygame...I don't LITERATELY think the MC is me...

Anyways this whole thing is essentially semantics and can be argued either way...so it doesn't really matter too much at the end of the day! lol :P

(This comment was originally much much longer but then I realized it wasn't very good/bad so I deleted it. If anyone wants to see the full comment...just reply saying you do and I'll post it as a reply to your reply! ;) )

EDIT: Honestly I was thinking of not even posting this...but getting the damn quotes to work correctly took way longer than it should have so I just bit the bullet and submitted anyways...oh well... :/

POV modes

26 days ago

If you disagree with Ogre, you're a faggot and an enemy of the United States.

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26 days ago
I disagree with Ogre because "can't play a different gender or a character who doesn't have all six, like me" is a lazy and long debunked argument only fit for a CoGite. I also disagree with Alien because every one of his posts is a painful slog through Ellipsis Hell and he cannot post a coherent thought to save his life.

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25 days ago

Should I bother to explain/justify why I use elipisises so much or not really?

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25 days ago

Definitely.  It is a unique habit that helps you stand out here at CYS and a full explanation should be forthcoming.

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25 days ago

Might as well explain since you're not shutting the fuck up.

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17 days ago

At the time you made this comment...the following was objective fact...

I made 4 comments in the past 2.5 weeks. (Also in the last 2 days admittedly)
1 was a question
1 was a one sentence reply
1 was a normal comment
and 1 was a long reply that I only submitted cause 3 people asked me to

I've was talking...sure...but I wouldn't call that "not shutting the fuck up" personally.

(Though all of this might not matter if I decide to make more posts...whatever though...)

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25 days ago
Yes I'm curious why anyone would out themselves as a huge fucktard like that.

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24 days ago

Unfortunately for all of you (or fortunately depending on how you wanna look at it) I'm gonna be away from the internet (out of town on a trip essentially) for the next couple of days. So I won't have time to give an in depth response to this like I usually would (though I might when I get back).

The very very very very short answer to the question though...is that I perfer using the three dots thing over using commas despite the fact that they look more obnoxious when you use too much of them. Its more blunt than commas I feel...which is why I don't use commas much.

Stupid reasoning I know, but the the more in depth reason is more personal than that. I don't even mind seeing the three dots thing being used in place of commans personally...its just a bit weird is all...you know? (But if you wanna explain why I'm VERY WRONG and a faggot (not the same thing I hope) feel free to do so...lol :P)

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24 days ago
Well!!! your ellipsis are very wrong and you're a retard!!! at the very least. This is not how punctuation works in the English language!!! or any language really. There are actual objective rules that define that!!! it's an agreed upon system that allow us to communicate with these little symbols on the screen. You don't get to just make up your own!!! and when you try to it just creates an extra barrier for anyone trying to process just what the fuck you're trying to say.

It really gives a certain impression too!!! similar to how all caps indicates someone is yelling in your face at the top of their lungs. But in your case!!! that of a weak chinned mumbler who is trailing off uncertainly every few words!!! can't make eye contact and can't finish a thought. An ellipsis isn't blunt at all so that doesn't make any sense anyway!!! 'blunt' would be a hard stop!!! like a period.

(I've decided for personal reasons to replace all commas with three exclamation marks in a row!!! I'm sure it won't make my post read differently in any meaningful way!!! however. Tune in next time for replacing spaces!)

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24 days ago

Kill yourself.... in Minecraft...

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24 days ago
I think you mean "Kill yourself, in Minecraft."

Don't go hanging out with the wrong crowd picking up bad habits now.

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24 days ago

Honestly, I'm a bit disappointed at this explanation for reasons other than it is completely moronic.
 

 I was hoping that your reasoning was something like you were using the ellipses at specific intervals between words due to them being part of an autistic cypher calling for help because you have been chained in a basement for the last decade or so and you want someone to rescue you.

hehe  Used no commas in that Perhaps I will begin avoiding all punctuation lol

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24 days ago

TL;DR

Lol, fag.

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25 days ago

No, you should stop

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25 days ago
Um... no.

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25 days ago

Fatty here trying to get his kicks in 

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25 days ago
Funny you think I still have legs

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25 days ago
Sure, go for it. Because you don't have to use them, and yet you do. Every other sentence trailing off into a weak uncertain mumble is your deliberate way of presenting yourself to others, a distinctive choice just like typing everything in all caps or in purple flashing Comic Sans would be. It is indeed very curious.

POV modes

17 days ago

I'm gonna give my extended response now...because if I don't I know everyone is going to hold it over me forever...

It feels weird to me to type in a way that isn't reflective of how I think...when I type something it needs to feel like something I'd actually say...otherwise I start to feel off about it.

Like obviously there are times when I think/talk in a more blunt manner...but that usually happens when I know very well what I'm talking about/am confident in what I'm saying. Needless to say...talking about a literal story or even the writing process itself is a lot harder than say...talking about a video game. I have recordings of myself talking about a video game for a few hours without much hiccups yet when I tried to do the same for a story my mind just got really stuck and I couldn't get over it.

I might decide to make an audio vlog in the future going over one of my posts so you all can get a better idea of the logistics behind my word choice and punctuation. (Plus with less room for misinterpretation...I can get better feedback to improve my writing without me feeling like I'm saying something that isn't genuine/authentic)

This also ties into why I tend to talk in circles sometimes...

Like...lets use this example...

Instead of saying "What I mean is" I might say "What I essentially mean is". Why? Well the first one is more blunt obviously...but being too blunt sort of suggests that I definitely know what I'm talking about. It can come off as abrasive even if its just subconsciously. The second one kind of gives me a buffer...like "Oh! He essentially means something! So its not 100% sure!" while at the same time not taking away from the original claim...basically keeping the facade of sounding kinda smart without the burden of full commitment. That's kinda how I talk when I'm not sure of what I'm saying but I don't want to look stupid/retarded.

At first I thought that by trying too hard to come off as not retarded...I end up looking more retarded. And to a degree that's actually true...but now I realize that I come off as retarded anyways even when I do just try to speak my mind!

Also....I'd hope to ideally use ellipses less when finalizing a story I'm writing (not sure if I'll manage that fully though). As a result I'd like to think that you'd be allowed to talk on the forums in a more casual manner...though I suppose ellipies spam gives off a very different vibe that isn't quite "casual" per say...

Also also...the reason ellipses works as a replacement for commas is because they basically have the same function. That being to take a pause before continuing the sentence...ellipses are basically that but more blunt.

And I mean...I get it...it wouldn't hurt to try and edit my comments to look more professional before posting (which I sometimes do but my gosh it doesn't seem to make much of a difference unless I scrutinize EVERY SINGLE word and keep my comment relatively short) but its a bit much to ask that I do that for every single comment if people are going to end up not fully getting what I'm trying to convey anyways!

Anyways ever since this conversation started I've started to get way too self conscious about putting ellipses in my story and its kinda annoying me.

Though if its any consolation...its become a lot easier for me to convey certain ideas in irl due to my experience here. As I know people in irl aren't going to be anal about your word choice so I feel a lot more calm talking to people compared to how I might have felt in the past...though this could also just be recency confirmation bias and...

Ah! Who cares right? Going from here to my trip to back here has caused me so much emotional whiplash idk how to even describe it! How people talk to each other online over text and not feel the need to overthink what they say AT LEAST every now and again is completely beyond me to be honest...

POV modes

17 days ago

Dude, I know you are posting the whole tl;dr explanation  because we asked you to, but your understanding of ellipsis is retarded.

You wrote:

Also also...the reason ellipses works as a replacement for commas is because they basically have the same function. That being to take a pause before continuing the sentence...ellipses are basically that but more blunt.

Ellipsis are:

el·lip·sis
/əˈlipsəs/
noun

  1. the omission from speech or writing of a word or words that are superfluous or able to be understood from contextual clues.

 

Ellipsis are NOT commas.  They do not work like commas.  They do not provide the same function as commas.

 

POV modes

17 days ago
Man I was dunking on you before but let me give you some advice.

Nobody cares about the exact way you think. Thoughts are inefficient and fucking meandering around the point. Probably only thoughts I would be interested in would be those of actual loved ones or mentors. You are neither.

What people are usually interested in are the conclusions your thoughts have come to and the most major steps they've underwent to land on that conclusion. Cut all the crap inbetween.

Also if you feel insecure about what you have to say, just don't. A glorious death awaits those ready to die upon the most petty of hills.

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16 days ago

I can relate to some of this.

Consider and observe the structure of these three options:

  • "What I mean is that ellipses overuse is annoying."
  • "What I essentially mean is that ellipses overuse is annoying."
  • "Ellipses overuse is annoying."

You are right that the last one would read as most confident. However, anything you post, you think. It is implied -- so safely omitted. The last option has the 'I think' section unsaid, but if you're reading it in a post someone made, it is a safe bet that they think that.

This means you can cut all the 'I think's (and variants of) from your posts without losing much, if anything. Of course, reader interpretation will matter too, and in some cases it can be worth stressing that it is merely your thoughts (I still often do it for feedback posts/reviews, but I used to do it a lot more).

Then it can end up being a tool for exaggeration instead of just white noise. If you're always saying that 'you think' something, it becomes filler text.

Oh, and if you don't think something, you can clarify that instead.

  • "I heard that ellipses overuse is annoying."

As for ellipses use, I'm of the belief that they're strongest when used sparingly, since then they'll have more impact. If you use them a lot in your story, then this impact I perceive will quickly fade, and I'll be left with a more difficult story to read (comma's are less intrusive to my reading).

I'm happy enough to view it as a stylistic choice, but I'd probably mention it as a point of potential improvement.

Finally, overthinking posts/texts is a whole thing, but my advice would be to consider the stakes. Most often they are very low or even non-existent, in which case you ought to forgive yourself for making them imperfect.

That said, I still write up 'jokes' that I decide are unfunny and then . . . don't post/send. It's normal enough to think about what you post, after all (I think).

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16 days ago

If ellipsis were a valid replacement for commas, don't you think a single good writer in the history of the English language would've used them as such?

Overthinking is a curse. It keeps you socially retarded, as demonstrated here. You have to be willing to make mistakes and speak your mind, and stand by your point or acknowledge a good rebuttal. You shouldn't, however, ramble like a dementia patient trying to recollect their childhood memories. Mistakes won't hurt you nearly as much as your posts hurt to read.

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16 days ago

Retard 

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24 days ago
Ellipse's are overhyped in general, definitely not worth travelling far for the experience.

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26 days ago
I want to see the full comment

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26 days ago
Seconded.

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25 days ago

Yeah sure no problem!

Didn't realize I had so many fans people like seeing what I write... (someone even DMed me asking for the full comment...wild right?)

Here's the full/original comment...

If you can imagine yourself as being a character that isn't 100% you...then you can imagine yourself as a girl.

I get what your saying though...as its just a matter of semantics. But the thing is this can be argued either way.

What your basically saying is that "you" is inherently misleading due to the fact that the character you are playing...is not infact actually you. Where as in 3rd person...the suspension of disbelief is easier to swallow. You could keep taking the logic further and say "Wait I'm watching a character do something and now I gotta make a choice for them? What? That doesn't make any sense!"

Of course you could take it the other way around to...since the fictional character doesn't exist in irl...but you do...so thus having the story say "you" appeals more to certain people who want to feel like the main character is them...given that stories...to a degree anyways...are born from imagination.

What's the point I'm making here? A few points I guess...

1. You can't do it perfectly so don't stress it much

2. If you wanted to figure out what's the best way, you'd either go pure or go inclusive. Pure would lead one to perfer both games and stories to be better than story games...where as inclusive would be the opposite...but even that's semantics so we're back at square one. Which leads me to...

3. My opinion! Having "you" just works better for storygames I feel. Your the one making choices so you want as little psychological distance from the story as you can. Granted that would imply at first that every storygame should just be a puzzle game where your character has no defining thoughts that could interfere with your own...but its not hard to separate one's thoughts from a "you" perspective anyways if they don't 100% align with yours...as long as you make your MC's general thoughts line up with choices you made earlier in the story...your probably fine. After all the choices you make in any game are the parts that are going to stick with you the most on an immediate level...since they required your input. Pure visual narrative media's advantage is that they don't have worry about that crap at all...just watch and pay attention...that's it.

I'm sure 3rd person can work...but I have to imagine there's a reason most people default to 2nd. If your going to restrict your choices to just one person...that's even more reason to do 2nd (as I imagine there would be greater justification if you were like a deity controlling things...but see what I did there...now your a single person again! :O). Its hard to sell that your story has consequences if your able to control too much...hence the utilization of controlling a single character comes in!

Of course you could try to write a story with no consequences...but that would imply that your choices don't really matter...and in that case...would they really be choices? Would it still be a storygame...let alone a story? Arguably not...now its just a selection of pages trapped under a single banner. You've now made an "interactive experience"! Great job! :D

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25 days ago
Do you write that entire comment, then save it in notepad or something in hopes someone would ask to see it?

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17 days ago

Yes that's exactly what happened!

Well partially...

I have a tendency to archive things from both myself and others. Like if I was making a long yt comment and decided it wasn't worth posting I'd still archive it for myself to read later on even if noone else read it.

Not sure what prompted me to bait people to ask for it though. Perhaps I thought it had some worth...thus I decided to leave the option open for that reason.

Write Comment > Save Comment > Delete Comment > Rewrite Comment > Prompt Possible New Comment > Send Comment

That was the exact thought process and chain of action...

I think there was a time I shortened a comment on here and didn't allude to that being the case. So idk wtf happened this time...will probably be a 50/50 thing going forward...

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25 days ago

I'm not reading all that.

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17 days ago

Good

It was deleted for a reason

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26 days ago

That's a weird answer. I can unblinkingly play as a rabbit, or a machine, or a giant, hatted rat. All of their self-conceptions make sense to me, I'm just creatively taking a role.

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26 days ago

There are plenty of examples of great stories written in all three POVs on this site. There isn't really a 'one size fits all' as certain POVs work better in some stories than others. It depends on the story. Just write what you want.  

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26 days ago
Please explain in depth how first and third person are a "form of Calvinism." Especially, expound on how they affirm the doctrine of total depravity of man.

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26 days ago
Bro just casually dismissed all common and accepted writing perspectives. So when will your royal plural work get published?

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25 days ago
I finally published my story. It's awful and does the exact opposite of what I intended. I felt kind of gross while writing it. I don't think it's really worth playing tbh.

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25 days ago
Sounds like maybe you shouldn't have published it until you fixed it then? You weren't on a time limit.

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25 days ago
I did not put in a lot of effort on this project, but I needed to crank out something to publish.


Well with a description like this, how can we not read it?

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25 days ago

I did not read it

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25 days ago
I did read it.

I would like that 30 seconds of my life back, please.

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25 days ago

You should feel gross and you will pay for what you’ve done.

It has been decided that in addition to formal mockery your pointless points will be cancelled and you won’t advance to the next level.

It’s not going to be easy staying on the site, everyone knowing what you did.

You have difficult times ahead.

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25 days ago

I think it's pretty awesome that his username is "Super Teller".  Obviously he didnt live up to his chosen nickname

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25 days ago
Oh. I guess you thought that had a different meaning than I did.

I was thinking "Super Teller" was referring to his job... at a bank... as a teller... at a pretend bank... in his mom's basement...

Was that enough ellipses (aka "elipisises"), @alienrun?

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25 days ago

ahhh...  Your understanding makes much more sense...  Hopefully, he is better at counting than writing... Hey... using all these elipseseseses ... is kinda fun... wow... I am free from the confines of punctuation... I will walk to the beat of my own drum... I will change the world ... and grammar as we know it...

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25 days ago
You guys aren't using nearly enough words to circle around your points.

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17 days ago

Finally someone gets it! :D

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15 days ago

Moving back towards the original topic of conversation, has anyone seen good examples of fourth-person point of view in stories?

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15 days ago
I haven’t really ever read anything in that pov at all, let alone good. However it’d probably be a fun writing exercise! Please hold, lol. To be honest though, I feel like it might be sort of tedious to read in a longer story, but maybe I’m just uncreative. Do you have any examples in general, that isn’t like some sort of political text?

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15 days ago

Here's a section of A Rose for Emily by Faulkner that uses 4th person:

"We believed she had to do that. We remembered all the young men her father had driven away, and we knew that with nothing left, she would have to cling to that which had robbed her, as people will."

Honestly, it probably would be tedious to read something that constantly uses the pronouns we and us. Some characters could use this selectively, like Venom I guess. That's why I'm morbidly curious to see if anyone has actually tried to write a full-length story using this point of view and actually make it work.

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13 days ago
Well it sure won't be the OP.

I could think of a few interesting directions to take that though.