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Did you go to China because your dick is small here, but over there it would be considered big or average sized?

Thara, this isn't the place to post about your insecurities.

I'm big in China.

Just like Willy-boy. :)

I'd be insecure if I was Will's personal Asian masseuse/live-in-maid/secretary/ball-handler/cock/cum gargler/mouthpiece.

Fortunately, I'm not.

But wait a minute, aren't you Asian?

Ahhhhhhhhh!

I did not know will was a passport bro. That makes him even more based than he is.

Wait. Aren't passport bros the guys that go to countries with dubious age of consent laws and live out their fantasies?

Cel... you can't be Nazi and a Kiel! 

Will's a man desperate enough to break the law to get close to kids!

Kinda like how most discord servers have you read their rules before you are allowed to post in any of their channels.

I know pinned messages are supposed to serve this purpose, but it seems like they are being ignored in most cases.

How about we put the Rules of the Forum/Site (not using alts, no AI, etc.) right in front of noobs when creating an account (or at least before being allowed to post in the forums) in a way that prevents copy and paste and then make them type out the Rules of the Forum exactly as they were shown into a text box, before they can create the account/post in the forums (account creation/forum privilege is interrupted or blocked if what they typed into the text box doesn't match the shown rules)? It would be a significant enough amount of effort to weed out the frivolous accounts, add another obstacle against trolls spamming from multiple accounts, and the content of the rules should register with even the most soft-minded of users.

That seems a bit much, but when a rule is violated we should make the offender write "I will not break x rule" 100 times as their penance and then ban them anyways 

I think that putting them right in their face would probably help, but there will always be those who find some way around it.

Everyone always think they're getting banned for stuff like this when that's never really been the case unless it's just some noob trolling to bitch about the site. Hell, if someone like Cel and Ben are still around, you're pretty safe.

I actually wasn’t surprised you left or were going to do much on the Discord anyway since we’ve actually had this conversation a LONG time ago in PMs even back in the 2015-2016 era.

In any case, I’d argue that the site is way less "hostile" than it used to be.

But I think Mizal probably has more of a well worded opinion on all this, so I’ll let her take the lead since she had more of the issue with you suddenly disappearing from the discord and she’s been trying to contact you about other stuff and it seemed like you were ignoring her.

Anyway, want me to pick up anything on my way home for dinner tonight.

Okay, I shall attempt to set out my thoughts on the matter. There might be edits later if I can think of more precise ways to phrase things.

To preface this textwall, I’m not saying that we have to be so careful as to fret about the unlikely hypothetical consequences of every single thing we post, or that we have to help noobs regulate their emotions. Of course, freedom of speech and creative liberty are important, and I’d rather not police posts on the site, but sometimes I wonder if behind a screen, some members stop thinking of noobs as actual people with real emotions and thoughts (and sometimes unstable/fragile mental states).

I know what some of you are about to type in response to this: we don’t need to coddle the deliberately annoying kids who are special snowflakes that get their feelings hurt by the mildest papercut. In rebuttal to the argument I’m pre-empting, I think of what is known as the 'thin skull rule' in law, where it isn't a defence to say that the victim's thin skull is the reason they have sustained more injuries than the average person. We have to take each individual as they are. How does this apply, then? If a person has openly talked about suicidal ideation or self-harm, maybe think twice before telling them they’re a waste of oxygen and would be better off ending their life. Could you deal with the consequences if a message you thought was banter ended up being the reason someone went through with the act?

I might as well address Fabrikant's point here that substantive writing criticism hits harder than vitriolic comments. That is likely a case by case situation (where actual effort has gone into stories, I can see how your point stands), but if a member has dealt with suicidal ideation or worse in the past, the combined effect of the negativity bias and reconfirmation bias would mean the latter would be far worse.*

*Some term explanations for Avo/anyone else who needs it. The negativity bias: if you receive ten great comments about a story and one negative one, the brain has an odd tendency to latch onto the negative one and attribute it more weight than the positives. The reconfirmation bias: if I ask you to look out for red cars the next time you’re on the road, you will start seeing a lot of red cars. This is because our brain unconsciously seeks information that is congruent with our normal thoughts - if we think everyone hates us, we will misconstrue neutral evidence like silence to prove our own point, and vice versa.

I completely understand the annoyance when dealing with trolls. After having my effortpost advice being ignored in favor of them spamming the site with their illiterate drooling messes, I have become a little more cynical over time. This will always be a case-by-case assessment, because someone who is well aware of the site culture and actively trying to annoy everyone will be unphased by negative comments hurled their way, whereas a newer person who is perhaps just mentally-challenged might require a bit more patience. Not to name anyone, but there have been instances where the infuriating noob deemed irredeemable has gone on to be featured as one of the site’s greats. 

Another point I should address is the site culture. A lot of things are normalized here which aren’t as common elsewhere, like the “lol fag” meme and the creatively-worded insults that may alarm the uninitiated but are never meant as more than a fun pastime for the regulars. Perhaps just keeping in mind who is and isn’t familiar with such things before posting them could be helpful. As with everything else, you will have to strike your own balance in light of all the relevant factors. It could just be that we’ve gotten so used to how things are on the site that we’re desensitized to some of the harsher insults which cause culture shocks to others.

There are certainly a lot of wholesome aspects of the site. I particularly like how new noobs are positively-received with helpful links to articles and story recommendations when they arrive. Every time someone wins a contest, every other member gathers to congratulate them. Comments tend to be more encouraging/complimentary than insulting for the most part. If you post a well-meaning question, someone will be willing to answer it in depth at the cost of their own time. I am of the opinion that the forums have more positivity than negativity, but then again I might be biased towards my favourite site. 

I shall end my post with a point of law. Do you know that it is a crime to coerce minors into causing harm to themselves or others in the US, even through the internet? Coercion is defined under section 3397 of the Ending Coercion of Children and Harm Online Act (ECCHO 2025) as including ‘the use of extortion, threats, fraud, deceit, duress, intimidation, harassment, humiliation, degradation, or manipulation’. For those in the UK, encouraging serious self-harm could lead to imprisonment. The Online Safety Bill (yet to be released) will target those who ‘hide under the anonymity of the internet’ and is criminalised ‘regardless of whether or not victims go on to injure themselves’. So if nothing else, please try not to get yourselves or the site sued :)

I personally don't think that would be necessary, seeing that CYS has been pretty good at educating younger members (and in fact, members have been known to be wholesome with kids like Avo, AL, TCat and a few others whose names I can't quite recall). I like all the efforts to recommend books and literature to the newer generations. I never checked, but it does make sense that all the trolling noobs are under 13 years. 

As I mentioned in my post, for me, it isn't so much a problem with trolls who know what sort of treatment they will receive on the site and continually prove themselves to be an annoyance, as they cannot claim to be adversely affected when they know exactly what to expect by that point. That's a good point, using it as a reason to stop them from getting their feelings hurt and thus spamming a thousand alts could reduce the need to deal for mods to clean up their messes.

And thank you for handling things with the schools, I appreciate all that you do for the site, especially with everything you have going on. Until somewhat recently I never realized how much moderation goes on beneath the surface.

Goodness, I liked the idea of them being immature 12 year olds better because at least I didn't need to think about how badly the education system failed them. Yeah you made the right choice with Harper because he posed a real risk to himself with the doxxing. 

While I do think that blocking this site from schools would help, as someone who uses their school Chromebook for 99% of the interactions on here, I really hope you don't do that

Seconding not getting this site sued.

Not having been in the discord for a while, I am definitely missing a lot of context (given my name keeps getting repeated I assume some whiny little penguin-shaped bitch or possibly two have whined about it a lot), but that's not really my point for posting.

Everyone should know my views on telling people to rope, so that's also not what I'm here to talk about.

I'm here to latch on to one tiny little section I haven't seen anyone respond to, which is editing people's posts (and other mod abuse, which is taken lightly by seemingly everyone except mizal and now will).

And I think something should definitely be done about that, especially given I think there's only one "admin" in particular that likes doing it.

But then I'm sure that discussion's been had by the admins many times before so idk what my actual reason for posting is, other than to say that even the token Nazi doesn't like it and thinks some higher standards should exist for admin behavior.

Far be it from me to decry racism, but I don't actually think I've seen very many instances of people being racist to anyone in particular. In fact the most "targeted" racism I've seen is against "the europeans" and/or me.

If there's racism of any kind, it certainly isn't done by most people, and it isn't usually targeted. In fact I don't think I have even once unironically been racist towards anyone in particular (being racist in general against specific groups is a different thing entirely, but it's certainly not happening against "young noobs").

Scrambling much after the hard R in the forums debacle?

You are literally the only one whining. Putrid cunt

Ah and that's whiny bitch #2. Thanks for saving me the effort of asking. Please refrain from further useless comments though, this is a serious thread.

Says the most useless commenter of the decade, bitching and whining on his ai automaton cringe routine

Avid reader of pebbleyeet? I would never.

I want to thank Will for this thread, since it gives us things like this.

I really don't know why you keep knocking on me specifically when any interactions between you and I I remember as nothing but positive.

I'm going to start thinking people actually might be saying one thing publicly and another thing privately, which is a very very bad thing to do.

I'm pretty sure everyone, for instance, knows exactly what I think about them.

So, how was your taste of a sliver of being based? You should crap on Cel more, it's good for the Cystian humors

Because you are such a fag that you even disgust the nicest person here

More fun than hat tipping

Before this bit escalates (Or possibly this will escalate it further for lols) Thara actually hasn't been the one deleting your profile or docking you points. She's sort of just been taking credit for it because well she knows it annoys you and that's how she rolls.

In fact, pretty sure she's the one that gave you 500 recently. (Which was taken away obviously)

Now there's actually been more than one taking away your points. I mean it shouldn't be too surprising that your views are going to piss off a lot of people.

And yeah I've been the one trying to give some of those points back and NO not because I'm supporting Cel's views, but I do believe in a sense of fair play for the most part.

Like I already addressed this in the discord that if Cel really is pissing off all the admins so much then obviously put him down, but if we're keeping him around for whatever reason then leave his points alone unless he's obviously doing shit like unironically talking about gassing Jews or something, not just because some lone faggot is whining about him.

Well, damn, I'm actually agreeing with Cel for once; The mod abuse has gotten bad around here. It's even worse than how my dad abuses my holes! 

Did someone say mod abuse?

And I'm glad you and Will are in agreement with the racist incel nazi.

It lets me know I'm on the right side! 

And this marks the first post of mine that's been edited by a mod. Yay?

I talk to Sent every day and he hardly ever talks about you. I think the last time he's even brought you up was months ago and it was because someone else prompted it with "hey is it true there's some brown guy on that site who says he's a nazi? what a retard lol" and he had to illustrate that for him

Lol fag

This ain't gonna become the noob coddling club though

Ah, I thought I saw someone else talking about PMs when reading through the thread!

Anyways, these are all good points, and I agree with all of them. 

Why do you keep bringing up Infinite Story, that place didn't have any mods at all and only ever had a handful of people on the forums mainly due to Sev fucking up the access to it. It was more like a tomb than a 1984 restrictive dystopia or Mad Max anarchy hellscape.

Unless you're confusing Infinite Story with CoG being the 1984 dystopia.

Will probably could've addressed this in our unused mod forum on here, but turning this into a bloody gladiator spectacle for the public to join in as opposed to boring backdoor executions was a much better idea.

Say what you want about the place, but you don't get this sort of entertainment at other IF sites!

He dead yet?

Nope, worse.

He became a very boring lawyer.

While the idea of putting a maturity rating on forums is a good idea, I think (with my limited knowledge) that it would be extremely messy to implement for a few reasons:

1. How do we determine the initial rating of a thread? Would it be by the person who made it, a mod, the community, automatic detection, or something else?
2. If something gets brought up/deleted that would add/remove something that impacts the rating, how/would it be changed?
3. From what I've gathered, no one really messes with the code in the website nowadays, and it might be a spaghetti mess back there. Adding such a massive feature would more than likely have a cascading effect that causes thousands of bugs to pop up, and at that point, you might as well rebuild it from the ground up.

Putting that aside, another automated PM, or an update to the existing one, that lets them know about the culture of this place would probably help a few people.

Or we could just not implement bad ideas

You're being very toxic and combative, sweetie. 

This is not good! I'm going to dock you points like the good old days of CYS. Let me find the description Kiel gave me when he docked my points in between his public forum thrusting... 

Please implement trigger warnings as well. I can't take the forums for an extended period of time without my eyes watering and tearing. 

Wow, this is a loooong post. Might as well reply with a shorter but still lengthy post since I have the time. Also, I'm glad to see that you haven't left, Will! The review club would have probably gone the way of the dodo soon enough if you had.

And apologies for the giant wall of text. Most of this is just quotes, but I don't really know a way to shorten it beyond what I've already done

If I were a Noob criticizing the site culture, I’d stand a good chance of being banned / having my posts re-written to make me appear as a creep.

I personally think that the main reason newb's posts get edited and they get banned is due to generally being completely unwilling to learn and repeatedly getting into fights every five seconds. However, the criticism probably does play a part in it.

I think adults in authority telling inexperienced teens and pre-teens to kill themselves ... is not a good way of encouraging potentially talented writers, to join the site. Except as an outlet for frustration I don’t see its use and as a teacher with some students who are victims of cyberbullying, I’m haunted by the fear that if you keep telling mentally-distressed strangers to go kill themselves then one day, one of them just might.

Seconding all of this. While it might be funny for some to joke about suicide, I personally don't like it when people joke about that kind of stuff for the same reason listed here. There are also many better and healthier ways to vent your frustration that don't involve ridiculing others. (I personally think that it is just plain bullying when this stuff happens, but due to the large amount of mods participating in it, I'm afraid that if I speak up against it, I'll get ridiculed as well)

... I might argue that I’m only in a minority because most of the others that feel this way ... have already left the site, avoid the forums or join in, encourage or at least ignore the culture of cyberbullying ... that is encouraged here to avoid becoming a victim of it themselves. Others, as I mentioned, might be afraid of getting banned, punished or ridiculed if they speak out against it (a thought that has occurred to me!).

I'm not sure about anyone else, but I'm in the same position as Will here. While there are a few things that I'm okay with due to it being a big part of this website's culture and ultimately harmless (think "lol, fag"), there are quite a few things that I don't like. Still, as Will said, I don't speak up about it because of the history of new people getting banned and ridiculed for pointing it out.

Also, one of the reasons that I think this site has the culture that it has is due to the people who are okay with it pushing out everyone who argues against it. While I don't think that this site should completely get rid of all the "special" things that it has, as they're an integral part of it that make it different from all the other sites I've seen, it should probably still try to tone them down.

I just don’t get why it [cyberbullying] needs to be such a big part of the forums of a site devoted to reading and writing CYOAs. ... It’s something fans like us have added and just seems completely unnecessary.

Agreed. I think that, if this site were to get rid of most of its cyberbullying habits/culture, a lot more people would be willing to post in the forums, share stories, and generally join the site. However, I do also recognize that there are quite a few cases in which we do need to be harsh to the imbeciles that wander in.

We all have different ways to communicate and different standards related to them and if we can just soften some of the more extreme ways of communication (the abuse, death threats and racism – most of us wouldn’t say the same things in real-life that we say online because in real-life there are immediate consequences while here, we are protected by the anonymity of the internet) it’d make the site a much happier and more welcoming place for high-quality writers in the long-term if we didn’t tell so many kids to go kill themselves, and other vile things, for being slow-witted when they first join the site. I’m not saying we should tiptoe about and talk to each other like characters out of a Jane Austen novel (“Good day oh Master of Ends, how fare thee this bright morrow?”) but perhaps there is a less abusive, more friendly and welcoming direction the forums (especially Newbie Central) could take?

Yep, this is pretty much what I was trying to say earlier.

And that's everything I feel the need to comment on! I'm glad to see that you aren't leaving this site (at least not yet), and I'm also glad to see that someone who's been around for a while finally took the chance to voice their concerns about the culture here.

And goddamn, I feel like I put more effort into this than what I've done for some of my reviews of CYOAs so far. That's kinda sad.

Ah. Those were the days. Where a bunch of kids would run around for the pedo mod to groom while his sycophants applauded, while they held all the power to arbitrarily punish and wield as they saw fit.

So nostalgic.

Yeah the barbarian faggots and pedos were all purged. This site ain't gonna become another fucking Cog for the sake of "being nice"

Gotta remind peeps sometimes though, you'd think they'd be a little more willing to listen to peeps who know. Will at least has been in his happy bubble and was perhaps unable to hear the screams from the faggot proscriptions 

I am also in that thread and referred to as a professional ragebaiter. 

First of all, you're entitled to your views and it would be a sad day if we started punishing people for good-faith criticisms of the site. 

 I think I disagree with you that online speech is comparable at all to in-person speech. I think, in any kind of conversation, you're entering into it with a set of norms which emerge socially. Flaming and extreme banter, for better or for worse, are part of the online milieu of the time period this site emerged. We're basically a time capsule here: this example of culture, of all against all shit talking, is something that has basically vanished from the world except in a very few places. Social media, overwhelmingly, is controlled by corporate interests who have a desire to keep things ad-friendly and not upset the shareholders, which gives rise to a very "yikes my dude" kind of communication style. I think there's value in the way we are: it demonstrates a commitment to open and free communication, even if it's ugly. 

I think we shouldn't have people telling children to kill themselves, but to be frank I don't think we should have young children here at all. People definitely told me to kill myself when I joined, but I was around fifteen or so and was able to intuiIt that "kys lol" is not equivalent to "this is a sincere demand for you to end your own life in the real world." I don't think we get any value from child members, and I don't think the standards of education in the West are still capable of producing someone with the literacy skills that we require. 

And as for racism and intolerance, I don't actually like genuine racism, homophobia, or anti-trans sentiment. The reason I like CYS very much is that I don't think, at least for most people, that it's sincere at all. Friends I've made here have made jokes that I find funny about me that, if hurled at me on the street by a stranger, would result in violence. I think it's the difference between watching South Park and attending a Klan rally. There's a tongue-in-cheekness and lightheartedness in most of the communication here that I don't think is tantamount to actual racial abuse. 

If this placed changed significantly, it would feel like watching the last customer ever walk out of a Blockbuster or a Hollywood Video.

I get what you mean, when I arrived I kinda expected it to be like the rest of the places on the internet that I've been, super nice, but because the way people are here is similar to how I'm treated in real life, I took it as normal. I understand though that not many children have this perspective.

Some newer people here have given their opinions, so I'll throw mine in here too.

I feel a draw towards acting with kindness. I represent the Church with what I do as a Christian. Even behind the mask of an online identity, the effects of what I do are still real. I never feel good about tearing someone down, and try to only tell jokes of a certain level if there’s an atmosphere of benefit of the doubt and understanding. Will11, and to whom this complement also concerns, the kindness you’ve extended to others is something I appreciate. I’m glad to know you and the sensitivity espoused is welcome. I’m thankful for you and glad to talk about this with you.

That being said, barring the most abjectly cruel situation, I’m never going to expect or ask for others to act like me. I also do not want this site’s culture to change.

There's really no accounting for children getting affected by things here. It doesn't matter how much we would try to gatekeep, filter out or protect those we would consider to be at risk; they will always find a way to get in and get hurt. Giving age ratings or disclaimers for certain threads or tabs is functionally useless. The person most at risk for being hurt by harsh discourse online is also the sort of person least likely to be fit to be online in the first place. Feelings get hurt all the time, but that’s resistance training for living. Any child of worth who is a good author, showing capability of critical thought, is not the character archetype we have to worry for. However, the vast majority of children shouldn’t be on the internet. In fact, most adults shouldn’t be on the internet. Trying to accommodate to this demographic in a space like this is a losing battle. I don’t always like the way things are done here, but you have to take the good with the bad. If one has the prerogative towards kindness, they should take it upon themselves to give towards one in need rather than demand authoritative action from on high. We risk losing what’s been created here otherwise.

Concerning section 3397 of the Ending Coercion of Children and Harm Online Act (ECCHO 2025), I rarely use this expression, but...it's gay. This law is gay. There's no way to really enforce this that doesn't result in destruction to freedom of expression, and I value the atmosphere here. I would prefer to earn people’s respect here rather than have it be given freely. I don’t need anyone’s approval so long as I get good feedback on my stories. I’ll enjoy community where it can be found (and I value the relationships I’ve made here), but my primary concern is towards the craft. 

I don’t want this site to become like everywhere else. That would make me want to kill myself (if you know what I mean).

FWIT I think you've done a good job representing your faith. I've never seen you say anything mean.

Anyway it's definitely a difficult balancing act. And you're right about age restrictions/gatekeeping. Few people, least of all kids, are going to abide by them. Maybe the vitriol could be dropped a bit, but maybe in addition to that, those of community more inclined to being supportive and super kind to people can ease the tension a bit. They already do to an extent.

So you want to have more members on the site who wed have to be nice to who don't fit the sites standards just so you can sell more shit to them? Never expected the most insincere bullshit to come from you, Will. And because you want to monetize that was worth making us out to be shit we really (mostly) aren't? Creating a problem out of a non problem to ignore and ostracize your friends about. Yes coddle the unwashed masses with unnecessary kindness, just to stick your grubby fingers in their pockets? And wasn't it you talking about integrity before if I'm not mistaken?

Lol you fuckin miser piece of human shit 

This is supposed to be a hobby site and no whining over literally nothing is gonna change that

I don't think this site exists for fan fiction of the original Choose Your Own Adventure series. They were the first in a medium which inspired the whole, much larger family of interactive fiction. I don't really think Vampire the Masquerade and Cyberpunk 2013 are fanfiction of Dungeons and Dragons, that's just how new forms of expression works. Someone has the idea, someone else iterates on it meaningfully. Why do we owe allegiance to the contents of children's books from the 80s? 

Your first paragraph is a strawman argument and your second paragraph claims your arguments aren't?

Your rhetoric is not only holier-than-thou to an unbearable degree, but it's also holier-than-Swiss-cheese in terms of its content.

My account is half my irl age at this point, and you can actually see in my points history when I was acting like a pubescent ball of hormones and cringe. When all my points were taken away I literally cried and punched a wall because of how badly my feelings were hurt. Interestingly enough, I also lost points for acting racist at this time (it was just an edgy joke that I since regret, but it still got me docked)! That's odd, because reading your OP makes it seem like this site is 50% vitriol-flinging KKK members. In reality, I suffered from actual bullying while playing online video games. I still remember how many people told me that they would rape and/or kill me while I was playing Destiny and Halo back in the day because I had an effeminate 12-year-old's voice. Yet I stuck around because these mouthbreathers were surprisingly competent at Vault of Glass.

The conclusion I have come to after reading through every reply in this thread is that you have no idea what CYS actually is now. It's like you're arguing with a ghost. You have no finger on the pulse of the forum or the people of this site. I came here because of the Goosebumps novels, which had a lot of dark and edgy themes, emulsified to make them suitable for elementary school child consumption. I WANTED more violence and edgy stuff in my CYOA experiences, so Endmaster stories were really appealing. I didn't behave myself though, and I got brutally vibe checked by the community as a result. After bawling over my loss of pointless points, I had a moment of realization that resulted in me taking a long break, and eventually coming back to become an irrelevant minor character, but no one has bullied me for my previous transgressions!

As someone who was on the verge of committing suicide, who also struggles with constant intrusive thoughts of suicide and suicidal ideation, I think it's frankly gross that you're likening the typical forum behavior to ACTUAL cyber bullying 

I've worked as a sports educator and summer camp counselor for five years now, and have had to curb bullies in real life situations numerous times. The behavior of CYStians is simply not comparable to sociopaths with abusive and vulgar tendencies. Trying to make the community out to look like this is a perverted leap of logic. Many other CYStians have posted excellent posts in this thread, so I'm kinda glad you made it, if at the cost of all your community cred and respect (at least in my eyes). I'm on my phone and on a loud, overstimulating Japanese train, so this ended up being an unstructured rant and I might not have covered all my bases, but I'll close by saying that this is the best state I've ever seen CYS' community in. We have defeated Kielstein, cast off the furry menace, and we have more productive and wholesome members than ever before, as well as more banger storygames than ever before!

We really need to get the kids on ADRIFT, it's not even that difficult to set up, and Theo is a chill guy who deserves the love.

I'm genuinely pissed at how many people in the modern world dilute actual, real problems by claiming that "X is racism" or "Y is pushing kids to kill themselves". Just look at current American politics and anyone can easily see the negative consequences that have come about from these Boy Who Cried Nazi arguments. If everyone is a Nazi in someone's eyes, then it becomes a lot more difficult to prove to the opposition that yes, that person really is a filthy fucking Nazi. Unfortunately this trend will likely never stop because virtue signaling is a great way to build social clout and easily get followers, but hopefully we can avoid it on CYS

I hope you're doing better, Wizzy, and I'm glad you survived that dark chapter of life. Probably might not mean much from a random person on the internet but I'm really proud of you for continuing on. I pray you will live a full and vibrant life :)

Thank you Mystic, it actually means a lot coming from you. Your work ethic is and has been an inspiration for me; you contribute so much to the site while also grinding for something very difficult in real life.

Thank you! Not to make this a series of posts where we thank each other back and forth, but I really appreciated your posts helping me back when I struggled with social anxiety. I think ultimately CYS is and has always been wholesome in the things that matter most.

I mean ultimately all this debate is cute and all, but whether there’s actually going to be any change in how things are done around here is another matter. 

While I’m sure there might be a minor effort to “be nice”, such things probably aren’t going to last long as soon as the next flood of retarded faggots come rolling in. (And they always do)

Not telling people to kill themselves, sure it can be done. But you do realize this is just going to be replaced with something just as offensive and you’ll probably still disagree with that too.

It’s basically like banning a word like “retarded” and then everyone’s saying “smooth brained”. It’s the same fucking insult, it doesn’t really change the intent, except you’re just saying it in a way that sounds “nicer” It's actually worse because it fosters a passive aggressive community much like well CoG which isn't what is wanted.

I haven't bothered really arguing much in this thread, mainly because I've heard this all before, multiple times. Various folks have said "This place is dead" since the mid 2000s for "X". People were bitching about this place being "toxic" for years and what happened? It actually grew and has a large stable core.

"100 core members" for over 20 years on a niche website is actually pretty good considering most folks don't stick around on any site for that long because well it's the internet and people ultimately move on or find other shit to do. If a few noobs get wasted, ultimately it really doesn't matter since we're still getting influx of new ones and some of them are sticking around like they have in the past.

Obviously we're doing something right.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’ll be continuing as usual. I suggest you all do likewise.

Or not. That’s fine too.

Ultimately, the place isn’t turning into “CoG-lite.” That’s what Kiel basically wanted and we know how that one ended. 

There's actually a joke going around that this is the "Woke Season" of CYS anyway, so this thread actually was probably good to add to the CYS history lore at the end of the year.

These mice cooked with this one. I wish I could spread this post everywhere, because it's applicable for basically everyone who's a kid or has kids.

Some other people have said more poignantly and pointedly a lot of the things I was going to say, and I'm tired and easily distracted so I'll cut to the point of my thoughts here. Frankly, this is a bewildering thread. I'm rarely mad at Will because, like, what's there to get mad about, but I feel like I've been jerked around paragraph by paragraph hearing very broad yet very damning criticisms that Will will never actually get specific about, to the point where it just becomes tedious finger-wagging at... People who are supposed to just know who they are and act with more decorum on their own, I guess. I know there's a lot more posts in this thread, where you say a lot more-- Judging by the more concise responses, it sounds like I shouldn't bother reading them because you managed to barely expand on any of the criticisms you made. I thought it was weird that people were responding like this so strongly talking about their entire histories with the site and how this place being exactly the way it was shaped who they became, because it seemed somewhat, though not entirely, out of the scope of this topic, but then I made the heinous mistake of trying to actually comprehend what you're asking for and realizing I wasted my time if this is going to boil down to "Things generally are bad, that keep happening sometimes, I think." I guess at that point the only response is "Nuh uh, the vibes are fine!"

Plenty of people come and go, but there's like 12-15 habitual posters to keep track of on a busy day here, if that. If someone said something racist or wrong you feel needs to be corrected, that's something we can discuss. But the fact of the matter is that this place we have here, didn't come from policing based on vague guidelines trying to create some ideal "vibe" of the site. The people on the site make the vibe, and you're free to disagree with how certain members are doing it. But, for the love of God, if you have a problem, disagree with them. Admittedly, like, a solution to some of the only distinct complaints you've had are instances of language being too harsh, like people being told to kill themselves, and like... I'm sorry man that ain't feasible, that's twitter and instagram at this point. It's not only the whole world, but also a part of site culture older than any one user. Like, the oldest post I even remember reading here was either End or Madglee giving a user instructions on how to use piano wire and superglue in such a way that when they walked off the edge of their roof they would be hanging upside-down holding their own decapitated head in their hands for the next person to find them.

You can be, and usually are, the change you want to see in the world here. The older set of members were shaped by the internet of the 2010s and specifically the way that the wild west style of internet before it collided with the smarmy debate club style of more insular literary forums of the era. A lot of us had to jostle for our position in a rigid hierarchy or actively revolt against it to establish a place here, and the chips on our shoulder served us well, since there were no active mods and the only means of moderation at the time largely sprung from community effort to make the place so hostile to undesired members that they voluntarily stopped logging in. On a lowkey level, that's kind of still how people are banned because this site was coded by clockmakers in 1536 and there aren't many other ways of ensuring people don't return. But we don't have to be nearly as vitriolic (or really care that much) anymore, since anybody who is a moron but no longer entertaining will be far more inconvenienced by having to make a new account than we'll ever be by pressing a button. That's also just us, users from that general span of years.

Just us. Notably, not the new users, who admittedly I don't know as well. But I've lurked enough to know folks like Fabrikant, Flux, Clayfinger, and definitely Avo and UD, really aren't much like that. Sometimes older members egg them on and they have barely any idea what to do, it's like watching people who speak different languages bicker in pidgin. So I know this generalized sense of something being wrong and "disrespectful" sure isn't pointed at the masses.

There is a newer set of active members in this community who either are moderators or participate in moderation themselves-- Mystic, Gryphon, Sherbet, Gower, who came to this site long after the height of ugliness and were not shaped by it. Or maybe they just didn't let it shape them, I dunno, I'm senile and sometimes everything during and after 2016 feels like one very long year to me. MHD is also like, ridiculously nontoxic, and she's been here pretty close to the height of what I would say was one of this community's most toxic eras, like a bottle of baby shampoo floating in a tub of bleach. They notably don't participate in this sort of thing and don't care. But this notable shift in the trend for CYS mods arose naturally from these people being good contributors who are thoroughly pleasant to hang out with.

But let me tell you something, natural selection didn't cause flying squirrels to evolve simply by killing all the squirrels who didn't jump far enough. There had to be squirrels with the mutations necessary to gradually develop those fucked up wing flaps in the first place. A reductive process does not produce an improved environment unless the environment is already good minus some part that you'd prefer to be removed.The members who have made this a tangibly nicer place did not magically come from tone policing, the vibe shift arose from their own jolly participation, steering the existing camaraderie from our shit-talking to things that are frequently more unambiguously good. These people are cool and I like them, and I'm glad that they make up the proportion of the community that they do. It's actually kind of funny how well we all fit into this kind of symbiosis when you look at it purely from that perspective. It feels weird to only expect one facet of these people all the time just because some people in the community are more like that than others. I dunno how you expected us to interpret that other than a very frog-in-throat nervous sort of "fuck off with that whole general thing maybe I guess if you want to".

If something happened or was said that bothered you, by all means speak plainly about what happened. And be precise with your criticism or you're going to get hostility from basically everybody, because if nothing else, people are going to be mad that you beat this far around the bush and then started talking about, what, being advertiser friendly? On this gormless website? The reason we're here is because we don't have to be advertiser friendly. If there were some nazi member around that you wanted to call a piece of shit, by all means. People would have lined up to join in! But the waffling makes it kind of a them problem.

Or, maybe, now that I've been thinking about this situation for way too long trying to conceive of what in God's name the point of it is, the fact this thread started with waffling about insanely broad generalities and only got wafflier before it started spinning out into weirder and more detached suggestions from there, I'm guessing this was more Will's attempt to diplomatically leave the discord after he got burned by the spice and decided sticking to contests and the occasional forum post like he had been prior to the discord was more his speed. There is no appropriate social script I can think of for "This party isn't my tempo, I think our relationship is better at a certain distance". I would have appreciated the bluntness because then I wouldn't have needed to dissect a 170 post thread for this message at 4 AM. But Will is the first to ever do it this way, and it's clear he doesn't have that in him. All told I still think he's a good egg, even if he's said nothing in the three posts I read, because this is the interpretation I have chosen to project onto that tv static. I hope that this mutually awkward exchange doesn't permanently burn through all his good will (pun intended) with his community and he continues to contribute at his own pace. There are many positive descriptors for Will11, "in touch" has never been one of them. I'll leave the accuracy of this assessment to people who have actually been more directly involved in the conversation, though, because so far my attempt to hear Will out has yielded a certain restless annoyance, so I'm giving this thread a pass unless I notice the opportunity to do something funny.

That's more than fine. No need to spend your time on the site being me, that shit's already been done.

This is a good post. In particular, I like the idea that members shape the site's culture and not the other way around. I have noticed a shift towards more positive events recently likely due to the sum of its members. 

Thinking about it a bit more, I'm starting to wonder what the next steps ought to be. After reading your assessment on the difference between members who were and weren't shaped by past chapters of the site, I have to agree that by enforcing vague 'laws' on what is and isn't allowed, we likely aren't going to get very far. Most people are just going to default towards what works for them. Having more members who never needed to use hostility as a way to ward off undesirables would mean that as time goes on, the site would naturally shift towards a less abrasive version of itself anyway. Echoing End's post, if we prohibited specific insults, members are probably going to find more creative ways to say the same things. Besides, it could be pretty silly if we were a writing site that prevented the use of words, especially when it's easy enough to delete posts where members share outrageously racist/abusive opinions as opposed to preempting what sort of insults people can say. 

Moving forward, the only implementable suggestion I've seen which doesn't involve near-impossible coding (but of course, coders feel free to prove me wrong) is to update the welcome message. Maybe instead of considering hypotheticals or dissecting past interactions to cherry pick/ argue for or against what happened, the conversation might be more productive if we just dealt with cases of "abusive language" or racism as and when they arise. 

One of the main reasons people treat you nicely is that you've so ridiculously outperformed other noobs (me included...).

Feel free to ignore this if you would rather, but since you're a younger and newish member to the site, I'm interested to know your thoughts on the matter. What were your perceptions of the site before and shortly after you joined, and have they stayed the same?